E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC RADIO NATIONAL
MONDAY, 25 JANUARY 2021
 
SUBJECTS: The Write Stuff book launch; Labor leadership.

FRANK KELLY, HOST: Well, with an election increasingly likely this year, divisions within Labor are starting to creak open again, it would seem, with Bill Shorten now criticising what he's called the “tiny policy agenda” of Anthony Albanese. The former leader says Labor must be a party that stands for something, if it's to reconnect with its blue collar base and turn around the steady decline in its national vote. But some colleagues have returned fire, saying Bill Shorten's in no position to lecture Anthony Albanese given the two elections he lost as leader. Bill Shorten, welcome back to Breakfast. 

BILL SHORTEN, MEMBER FOR MARIBYRNONG: Hi, Fran. But just before we start, I think that's not quite right. What you just described isn’t what I've said 

KELLY: Really? Okay, you tell me.

SHORTEN: Yeah, that was a bit of the click bait headline from yesterday's media coverage, but I'm not sure that everyone's read what I actually said.

KELLY: Well, I've got it before me, I've got it before me here. You say, I've learnt the lessons of defeat and I've learnt, and the party has learnt the dangers of taking too large a, too cluttered a policy agenda to the electorate. But the polar opposite of a tiny agenda is not the right way either. We must be an opposition that stands for something. Implicit in that is that you think -

SHORTEN: I think that’s common sense isn’t it?

KELLY: Well, there's also shows of concern that you think that the right way is not there yet. 

SHORTEN: Oh, no. I then go on to say I think our proposals around childcare are a demonstration of the right path. There's been a book written called The Write Stuff, 31 different Labor people have written essays. And I was fortunate to be asked to launch it in Melbourne at Readings yesterday. In that I was discussing what I had learnt from the last election and Labor's victories in the past. Now, I accept that we took a big agenda to the last election and there were so many ideas that it was possible for the Coalition to scare people. And perhaps what we needed to do was have fewer ideas. But what I also believe is that Labor is at its best when we're the party of the big positive ideas. You know, I've been in the Labor Party since I was 17. Medicare in the 1980’s was health care for all. And we've seen how well that works compared to perhaps the less adequate safety net that they have in the United States. The enterprise bargaining of the 1990’s laid the groundwork for two decades of wages growth, which unfortunately has stalled in the last few years, and, of course, the National Disability Insurance Scheme. So, no, I don't think we have a tiny policy agenda, but I do think it's important that we learn the lessons of the past, but we don't learn the wrong lessons. And having a no policy approach would be, I think, a mistake. I don't think we’re making that.

KELLY: Yes, but is there any suggestion that Anthony Albanese's Labor opposition has a no policy approach? 

SHORTEN: No.

KELLY: Because you say in the speech that you learn more from defeat than victory, but it's not important, but it's important not to learn the wrong lessons. And then you go on to talk about, you know, a tiny agenda not being the right way. Are you suggesting Anthony Albanese's policy agenda is not is not at this current time where it should be? 

SHORTEN: No, I'm not. I'm saying, though, that the lessons - we shouldn't learn the wrong lesson going forward and Labor is at its best when we offer [inaudible] Australia. 

KELLY: That's self-evident, isn't it? 

SHORTEN: Yeah, exactly. 

KELLY: So, Anthony Albanese says there will be policies spelt out before the next election. What policies should be on Labor's agenda? 

SHORTEN: Well, I there's no doubt in my mind there'll be no bigger issue in the election than COVID and the repercussions of COVID. A lot of my speech was saying that that was Labor's big safety net of previous years, which has helped get Australians through this last 12 months. And I am very concerned that the Morrison Government is actually winding back the safety net at the wrong time. I mean, when you look at it and again, you compare two great democracies, Australia and America, and there's a lot of good things about America. But the reality is that in America, you're one step between going okay and disaster. And that's why we need to make sure that we have a proper, award-based wages system, strong minimum wages, and we're seeing the government leaking out its messages it wants to wind it back. And the same goes for health care. And, you know, when you look at COVID, and I think this is the big issue of the election, working people in Australia have borne the brunt of it. They've lost their jobs. They've had their hours cut back, small businesses in plenty of sectors like the travel tourism sector, the live events, higher education - they're doing it really, really hard. And what we need to do is make sure that we support people who've gone through this process.
  
KELLY: And again, implicit in your speech is that this is the lesson that should be learnt, but perhaps is not happening enough. And as we said in the speech, we need to get oxygen to talk about, and you list these issues, some of which have just been through there. Do you think that Anthony Albanese is not is not managing to break through enough, or do you concede that in the middle of a COVID pandemic, it's very hard for an opposition to get the oxygen they need? How would you do it?

SHORTEN: Yeah, I said in my speech that I think we're doing a good job.  Anthony is doing a good job. I mean, the national moment favours incumbents. It is difficult, as you observed. That's what I said in my speech.  But I can't resile from the view that when you look at COVID and how we've gone, one, the Labor Party should be proud of what it's contributed to the safety net. Two, working people in this country, and I don't mean just employees, but contractors, casuals, small businesses. They've sacrificed their economic wellbeing for the public health emergency, on the understanding that the Morrison Government would be there for them at the other end. And three, that's not happening. In fact, what we're seeing is the safety net is being undermined. 

KELLY: You are, in the speech, you're talking about the lessons you've learnt from defeat, despite what you've said to us here today, some of your colleagues did not see this as an innocent speech, it’s provoked the ire of some of your colleagues. One unnamed MP in one newspaper today says you've, quote, destabilised every leader since you entered parliament. Are you putting Anthony Albanese on notice here?  

SHORTEN: No. And as for unnamed sources, I generally treat that with the seriousness that unnamed sources deserve. So, I don't accept it. And when people put their name to things, then I'll deal with it. But the more substantial issue is that the future of this country isn't decided just by personalities, presidential style simplifications of elections. The Labor Party is at its best when we're renewing the big and generous safety net we have in this country. Now is not the time to be winding back JobKeeper and JobSeeker. Now is not the time to be starting with the July 1st proposal not to go ahead with the increase in superannuation. I mean, this government has let Australians raid their retirement to deal with the present crisis. And the government's response to this action is to actually propose further undermining their future retirement. This is not the right way to handle COVID.  

KELLY: Bill Shorten, you're a former Labor leader of some years to elections. You're giving a speech here and you're giving interviews like this one where you're talking about policy issues. Is this Bill Shorten stepping up to share the load with leader Anthony Albanese, or is this Bill Shorten putting his leadership credentials on the line again? Do you rule out going for the leadership?  

SHORTEN: Yes, it is certainly not the latter. And in terms of stepping up, I was very pleased that we were able to campaign against Robodebt last year and organise the class action. So, I think I share with every member of the caucus a desire to win the next election. The Morrison Government, because of the national mood favouring incumbents during COVID, is ahead of us. But this election is winnable. My observation is that, yes, I've learnt that at the last election we probably put too many big ideas out there, but Labor's at its best when we're positive and we're offering views. And I think as a former leader launching a book of essays by 31 Labor colleagues, backbenchers, frontbenchers and union leaders, that the big issue which we'll see at the next election, amongst others, is indeed the response to COVID. And I think that the Australian people are the real heroes of COVID. But when I look at the unemployment queues, I don't see what the Morrison Government sees. I don't see a group of people who should have their JobSeeker slashed. I see people who lost their jobs because of the public health emergency, no fault of their own. And I see how lots of sectors which are still struggling, not everyone’s through the economic repercussions of COVID. And I don't share the Morison Government's desire just to rush back and pretend that everyone's through the crisis because we’re not.

KELLY: What's your take then, just finally from this election, from this speech, rather, that this election is winnable under Anthony Albanese if he puts more policies out soon? Is that what you're saying?  

SHORTEN: No, I'm not putting any ifs. I'm saying that I think this election is winnable under Anthony. And I'm also saying that we've got to learn the right lessons from the last election. And I think we are. 

KELLY: Bill Shorten.

SHORTEN: Thank you. 

KELLY: Thanks very much, Bill Shorten.