E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC PERTH
WEDNESDAY, 17 APRIL 2019

SUBJECTS: Climate policies; small business; electric vehicles; franking credits; Melissa Parke; Newstart; First election debate in Perth.

HOST: Bill Shorten, welcome to Perth.

SHORTEN:Great to be on the show.

HOST: Firstly, tell us why you’re here today?

SHORTEN: We’re here to explain Labor’s great policies for this election. In particular, on this visit we’re talking about our exciting new ideas to improve health funding. At the top of the list is new money - $20 million – to help leukaemia patients when they’re in the battle for their life. Blood cancers, of which leukaemia is one, take a terrible toll amongst our fellow Australians. We want to encourage more cancer drug trials, so that people can have access to life-saving medicine.
HOST: We have been asking our listeners this morning, Mr Shorten, to text through questions for you. I’d like to read you this text from Tim. He says “I’m really worried as a small businessman I’ve watched my business go from 15 staff to five since the McGowan government came to power and our local Albany economy has gone into freefall. Things are only going to get worse under a new government obsessed with all things green. When are you going to explain how your climate change policies will impact the economy?”

SHORTEN: Well you would love to know what business Tim is in, he obviously is having some business difficulties already, but let me just say this on climate change. First of all, taking action on climate change is good for the economy. Lack of action on climate change has led to an increase in energy prices. We know that investing in renewables is going to lead to 70,000 extra jobs. Western Australia is well placed to be a climate change leader, and that will lead to cheaper energy. Some other good news for a small businessperson, without knowing the exact small business he’s in, we are going to back lower taxes for small business, so that it will go from 30 per cent down to 25 per cent. We are also going to increase the ability of him to invest in new productive technology. If it’s over $20,000 any small business will be able to claim an extra 20 per cent off their tax. So, if you’re in food, and you buy a new fridge, you will be able to claim an extra 20 per cent off whatever the cost on top of what you already claimed and that will help you with cash flow, and that is great.

HOST: People are looking at the hiccups and stumbles at a time like this when you are focusing on an upcoming election, and such was the case yesterday afternoon, where you were seen to not answer a question that was asked by a journalist, and we have another question from a listener from Owen, asking what are the costings for your renewables and greenhouse gas emission policies, you owe it to the people of Australia to be transparent on this.

SHORTEN: Well, you made a preamble to this question. I have answered questions on climate change many times, many times. But I understand that perhaps people don’t always look at your old interviews, and every interview is as if it is the first time you have ever spoken. But on the modelling, first of all, $18 billion is the cost of natural disasters around Australia, so there is a cost to not taking action. Power prices have gone up across Australia. That’s because we don’t have a national energy policy, while this government’s had thirteen different national energy policies. When there’s no certainty on energy policy, people don’t invest in new energy. In terms of our proposals, modelling by Warwick McKibbin has shown that our 45 per cent reduction, including international offsets, has the same economic impact as the Liberals’ 26 per cent, who are not having international offsets, so, there you go.

HOST: So the costs are the same?

SHORTEN: Yeah. I would pick a more positive number than costs. GDP growth is going to be 23 per cent across the course of the 2020s. These are straight answers.

HOST: I mean, the thing with these climate change policies, these policies take time. You know, natural disasters are not going to stop the moment a good policy is agreed to.

SHORTEN: I don’t think any of us that extreme weather events are getting less frequent, are they?

HOST: No, but it may take a century to recover from that situation.

SHORTEN: If you don’t start – you are quite right, and what sort of world are we passing on to the next generation? We know this government is paralysed on climate change, and if they weren’t, Malcolm Turnbull would still be the Prime Minister, wouldn’t he?

HOST: Vote Compass is the online tool that ABC is using during the election campaign to gauge Australians’ views on the policies, taking the personalities out of it. The number one issue here in Western Australia is not the environment, but the economy, and that is the concern, and that is where they don’t trust you.

SHORTEN: Well, I don’t accept that. First of all, the idea that the environment and the economy are two separate planets and separate solar systems is rubbish. I know that’s not what you’re saying, but some people think that they are two different worlds. The second thing is that good climate policy is good economic policy. The fact of the matter is, we should be an energy superpower, we have got more gas in the ground than just about anywhere else in the world. The fact of the matter is we are the sunniest and windiest continent, and yet we don’t benefit from that. The fact of the matter is, in Australia two million households now have solar on the roof top, and what we have got to do is get more battery systems in. You know, I think Australians are sick and tired of a debate that says the future is too hard. Look at all this carry on about electric vehicles. We’ve said that we would like to see a target of 50 per cent of new car sales in 12 years’ time should be electric vehicles. Now, that is not a big of a jump as it seems. We don’t make cars here anymore because this government did not do anything to save it. The reality is, the rest of the world is moving to produce more electric vehicles. Toyota is going to offer an electric model of all its vehicles from 2025 onwards. So it’s all about … the beauty of all of this is why shouldn’t Australian motorists have options? At the moment, all we get is the very expensive cars, but once we’ve got a government that is willing to put in charging stations so that people in the bush can use electric vehicles, why shouldn’t Australians get access to vehicles that are cheaper on petrol?

HOST: But electric cars actually cost more, at the moment.

SHORTEN: Well, sorry, no, it’s actually been shown that over time when you pay for less petrol, it actually costs less. But I agree, at the moment the models are expensive, but this isn’t all about what happens next week and it’s not all about trying to take someone’s ute off them. We have got to have a political debate in this country which is not about scaring everyone, but says “this is what the future looks like”. What good is a government to Australians if it says that we are not going to plan for the future, we have no idea what’s coming down the road, we are not interested in international trends. This is the equivalent of a government arguing in favour of black and white television rather than colour, or AM over FM, although I like AM too.

HOST: (laughs) Not seeing what’s coming down over the road is quite an amazing analogy because I don’t think even you could have realised that electric cars were going to be the hot spot that it is. But the hot button issue –

SHORTEN: I just didn’t realise that we had a technophobic government who is afraid of new technology.

HOST: Every time we talk about it, we get loads of people talking about it, for and against.

SHORTEN: For and against. I guess my point is this: if you want to keep driving a petrol car, you can. Excellent. We’re not mandating anything.

HOST: But you would rather they didn’t.

SHORTEN: No, I’m happy if you do. What car you choose to drive is your business. It’s not my business. My job as a potential Prime Minister of Australia is to make sure that you have got the choices and the options and that we are not ignoring what is happening in the rest of the world. What if you had a doctor that said there might be new medicines or new treatments overseas “Oh no no, that is not the way we have ever done it in Australia, we can’t access that.” We can’t be anti the future. What we have to do is make sure that the future doesn’t leave people behind.

HOST: Bill Shorten is our guest, I beg your pardon, on ABC Radio Perth and WA, the Leader of the Opposition. Let’s go back to questions from our listeners.

Barry would like to ask you, your campaign is based on fairness, what is fair about taking away franking credits from retirees who have worked all of their lives paying taxes? Another hot-button issue on this program.

SHORTEN: Well, let’s go back to this. When you give a tax credit to someone who is not paying income tax, that is a gift. Now, it’s not immoral – I don’t blame Barry for taking the gift – I don’t blame him at all, it’s not illegal. But how can you give a tax refund to someone who hasn't paid income tax? It is a gift and the problem is that this gift when John Howard introduced it in 2001 was costing half a billion dollars to the Budget. Now it is costing nearly $6 billion. When will we decide that this gift is too big? When will we decide that it's not correct that we should be giving a gift rather than funding our schools and aged care? It’s a matter of choices.

HOST: A lot of people make the point that $3000 or $2500 is what pays for their health insurance every year, they make arrangements years in advance based on what you call a gift so why don't you grandfather these arrangements? 
 
SHORTEN: Because it is costing $6 billion. The reality is that when you go to hospital it costs a lot more than $2000, I need to find money for our ageing population. Did you know 411,000 Australians, nearly heading towards 420,000 in the next year or so, are going to be diagnosed as living with dementia? That is expensive. We have schools, we have childcare going up in cost, energy prices have gone up. Did you know everything in Australia is going up except wages? So I am not saying it is illegal or immoral. We are saying that anyone who is on a pension or a part pension is exempt from the change, but there is no principle of tax law since the ancient Romans, no textbook ever has said you should get a tax refund when you haven't paid tax. 
 
HOST: Bill Shorten there are a number of tightly held seats in Western Australia that you're fighting over at the moment. There are some that you would give up on and one of them would be Curtin but you did play a surprise hand I guess when came to delivering a candidate to Curtin for the ALP, and with it looked like the aim of disruption I guess, Melissa Parke, I am talking about and she of course now has stood down as the candidate for the ALP for the seat of Curtin over, some people would say, embarrassing comments that she made claiming that a Palestinian woman was forced to drink bleach at the Israeli border. How do you feel about the remarks and your decision to endorse her in the first place? 
 
SHORTEN: Well I like Melissa. I think she is an accomplished woman and she was a good Member of Parliament when she was there and she's also worked overseas for the United Nations and refugees so, I like her. In terms of her candidacy, she thought it would be good to run and then she made a decision that she didn't want to become a distraction and of her own volition she decided to take a step back again 
 
HOST: So you didn't ask her to stand down? 
 
SHORTEN: No. And the point about it is that she is a strong person. Anyone that knows Melissa knows she makes her own decisions. Having said that, in terms of what she has actually said I wasn't there. I am not saying she is wrong, I am not saying she is right. 
 
HOST: Are you embarrassed by it? 
 
SHORTEN: No, she has strong views. I like Melissa. It didn't work out on this occasion. But I am not one of those people that is going to … I like my team and I think that politics is better suited when you say positive things rather than everyone piles in. 
 
HOST: And now Josh Wilson supports a two-state solution in Israel and that is also causing you some tension? 
 
SHORTEN: No, he supports party policy and that is our party policy, a two-state solution - the right of Israel to exist behind secure borders but also recognising the legitimate aspirations of Palestinian people to their own country. 
 
HOST: Bill Shorten, will any elected WA Labor members make their way onto a Government front bench if you win?
 
SHORTEN: Who gets on the front bench is ultimately decided by the Caucus. But I think all things being equal that would be the case, yes. 
 
HOST: Pat Dodson? 
 
SHORTEN: Well I have to let the Caucus members have a say, I don't run a top-down organisation, but I think personally Pat Dodson is an outstanding Australian, an outstanding West Australian. I personally approached him to run for the Senate and you know any room that he is in everyone else in the room always feel a bit better because he is such a significant father of reconciliation. 
 
HOST: We have watched the Budget and your reply very, very closely. Why is the Newstart allowance, an increase, not an ALP commitment? 
 
SHORTEN: Well we are going to review it. First things first - I do think Newstart is too low. And the Government, they’re not going to do anything about it. What we want to do is review it, we want to see the interaction with the other benefits which people get, the tax and transfer system. But we are not reviewing it to lower it. 
 
HOST: Would you look at changing it so that it, the annual indexation is similar to what happens with the pension?
 
SHORTEN: I will let the review look at all of those issues, that is a legitimate issue. I think that some conservatives say that you should only be temporarily unemployed therefore keep it low and that way it gives incentive for people to get off it, but I don't think keeping it so low actually achieves anything other than is unfair to people very down on their luck. 
 
HOST: It makes a lot of people very sad... 
 
SHORTEN: We are up for reviewing it and we want to review it positively. 
 
HOST: Substantially, I mean I know you can't commit but it needs a good hike... 
 
SHORTEN: We get into the adjectives game, what I can say is it is too low.
 
HOST: Who do you imagine is on Newstart when you picture it in your mind's eye? 
 
SHORTEN: I think it is a range, I don't think it's one stereotype at all. You get people who are older who, the factory closes, they are thrown all of a sudden on the scrap heap and told they are not worth something. You could have young people. Youth unemployment is pretty significant in parts of Australia and of course unemployment in the west is a challenge. 
 
HOST: We've been asking our listeners over the last couple of weeks about trust in regard to politicians and in particular who they trust more, you or Scott Morrison. 22 per cent of our listeners who took part in our survey said they didn't trust either of you. Do you accept that voters are switching off? 
 
SHORTEN: I think there is disillusionment with institutions generally. I don't think a lot of people trust the media. Now I do think they trust the ABC that is why, for example, we have committed to an independent public broadcaster. But I think institutions generally including politicians are viewed sceptically, that there is this view that we are all just in it to look after ourselves and not the people. I'd have to say to people who get frustrated, we've decided to go first, we've got to trust the Australian people. We have put our policies out there. Now the very fact that we are having such a conversation, we are looking to the future on climate change, or we are focused on better health care not bigger tax loopholes, the fact that we are looking at unsustainable tax concessions, and saying can this nation keep going down this road of intergenerational unfairness where you look after people at one end and everyone else is not looked after. So we are taking the first step to rebuild trust by putting our policies out there. In politics traditionally, the argument goes when you are the opposition be a small target, let the Government fall over. Now this Government is hopelessly divided. Anyone who thinks they're going to unite after the election has no idea of the deep level of hate within this Government and dysfunction and chaos. But having said that we have to rebuild trust and that is why we're putting our policies out there. That is why for instance I have been to Western Australia for 80 days as opposition leader. I do what I call Town Hall meetings. We invite a whole suburb. Doesn't matter your politics, doesn't matter if you want to protest, doesn't matter if you have a grievance at the system or individuals we invite you to come along. I know that anyone that has been to our Town Halls likes what they hear. What I have got to do perhaps is have this longer form discussion than little gotcha conversations at eight seconds at a press conference which doesn't really add much to the sum of human knowledge does it? 
 
HOST: Bill Shorten just a final question for you talking about town halls, we read today that you have agreed with the Prime Minister Scott Morrison to a debate here in Perth on the April 29. Can you tell us what the arrangement of that is. Will it be a town hall-style debate? Will it be a more formal debate? Will there be questions from the audience or limited journos? 
 
SHORTEN: My preference is questions from the audience, just direct. The media, of course, should be invited, they can film the interplay. My view is that the more that I can talk directly to the people the better our case goes. 
 
HOST: Thank you very much for your time. 
 
SHORTEN: Lovely thank you very much for your interest.

ENDS