E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: NDIS Section 10 lists
CHRIS O’KEEFE, HOST: Well, today's the day. So, people on the NDIS, they won't be able to charge the taxpayers for prostitutes, vapes, concerts, crystal and cuddle therapy, goat therapy, babysitting, their marriage counselling, or their latest tattoo. Yep. So, people were charging the taxpayer for their latest tattoo via the NDIS. Now, the fact that these were ever allowed just shows how unwieldy the NDIS has become. And because they wouldn't be on the list, right, they wouldn't be on the list if someone has not claimed them in the past. Now, Bill Shorten reckons this will save the taxpayer $14 billion over four years, but already only a couple of days after announcing the changes, there's already been some criticism of them. Look, I don't know why. Probably because the cash will dry up for the crooks and the providers, I suppose. NDIS Minister Bill Shorten is on the line for us. Minister, thanks for your time.
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Good afternoon, Chris.
O’KEEFE: It's an exhaustive list. I've been through it. Um, it clearly took a while to compile.
SHORTEN: Yes. Listen, I've got to say 99% of participants are not getting any of the stuff which we're talking about here, and some of the stuff has always been illegal. What we've done is gathered together the ten years of experience and put it in one spot. I mean, part of the challenge has been that other mainstream systems, once they hear you’re on the NDIS, will say, go down to the NDIS. You know, that could be an outpatient’s ward, or it could be a school saying, listen, see if you can get the NDIS to sort out your chair here at school rather than us. Som some of it's not just rogues and charlatans, it's just other organisations treating the NDIS as the only lifeboat in the ocean for people with disabilities, which it was never intended to be. I think the other thing when you mentioned we're going to save, we're going to slow down the growth by $14 billion plus over four years. It's not just this list, it's all the other changes we're putting into place as well.
O’KEEFE: Just on that, what I don't understand, and I've never understood, and, you know, people say, oh, it's outrageous that the government is being charged for prostitutes via the NDIS. It is outrageous. The flip side of that is, well, profoundly disabled people are also entitled to a sex life. But is it not true that one should pay for one's sex life if that's what they want to do, because it's perfectly legal thing to do, shouldn't they do that via their disability support pension, their own money?
SHORTEN: Yeah, I'm not a - I'm a live and let live guy. I don't mind what you do in the privacy of your own life provided you're not hurting anyone else. But you're right. First of all, the scheme hasn't been paying for a fair while for sex workers. We've had a couple of hundred requests while I've been Minister, apparently out of, you know, millions of other matters, and they've all been knocked back, but we're just putting it beyond doubt.
O’KEEFE: But there is stuff here where people are -
SHORTEN: And look sure, disabled people are entitled to healthy sex lives, and some of the trolls on the internet are saying that somehow, I'm trying to interfere with that. No, a person with a disability is still entitled to have a sex life, not a conversation I thought I'd be having but you know, they are. The thing is, use your DSP.
O’KEEFE: Totally.
SHORTEN: Like, that's discretionary. The NDIS is about helping people -
O’KEEFE: Yeah. And is that what's been missed here? And look, it is unwieldy, clearly. But is that what's been missed here? That the NDIS has somehow been conflated with one's welfare and their income via the disability support pension?
SHORTEN: Yeah. I think what's happened is, I mean, you know, probably there's been a fair bit of naivety, there's been some unethical and illegal opportunism by a minority of providers. I would say that the seven Ministers who had the job before me didn't focus on the back office of the scheme enough. You know, what invoices were getting through, stuff which wasn't being properly explained was getting paid. So, you know, it's ironic, some of the disability advocates say I'm going to quickly, everyone else says I'm going too slowly. So, there you go. On the basis, I can't please anyone.
O’KEEFE: Sure.
SHORTEN: But is that a good thing?
O’KEEFE: Sure. Well, I've noticed some of the criticism. So, some participants are saying, look, they're concerned that home batteries and generators, which are used to keep people on ventilators and life support and the like during power outages, are no longer on the list. Why not?
SHORTEN: It's a state responsibility. Like, at some point, other systems have got to look after people with disability. The NDIS can't be everything. But I would say to anyone who's raised that if you think that there is an imminent issue, do let the Safeguards Commission know, because I'm not going to wash our hands of people, but we'll get on to the States to tell them to pull their finger out. So, I accept that there may well be interpretations and consequences in the list that we're going to have to iron out. But I'm very clear that where it's a state responsibility, I mean, why should the NDIS be paying for a child to be homeschooled? Because the Education Department won't go that extra distance to sort out a kid’s education?
O’KEEFE: Sure. I'm just looking at the list here. So, it's, you know, 15, 16 pages long, hundreds and hundreds of items. You know, you're dealing with people who, you know, can be intellectually disabled, whatever it may be. It is complicated at the best of times. There are some saying, well, okay, October 3, here's the list. Now you can't charge for them. People are worried that there may be overcharging for the wrong items and get themselves into debt that they've got to pay off.
SHORTEN: Yeah, well, we've got transition of a couple of - it's a good point. First of all, we've got 7000 submissions before we put out this list. It's not as if we woke up two days ago and said, ta da! Like some big magician's trick. We've been talking about reviewing the scheme and straightening it up ever since I became the Minister nearly a thousand days ago. So, this argument that everything's just a surprise is, I think, not sustainable when you look at, you know, all the public meetings, all the communication, the interviews I've done with you.
But having said that, if you are getting a service on the plan, and it won't be one of the illegal stuff like the prostitutes or the alcohol or any of that, that's just not on full stop. But if there is a therapy which you are receiving on the scheme under a current plan that's been approved, you'll still get that until the end of your current plan. The other thing is we get that sometimes people might make inadvertent mistakes. So, we're going to sort of have a two strikes rule where if under $1,500, there's is a mistake made, we'll educate people before - you know, we'll give a bit of grace and favour for 12 months.
O’KEEFE: Sure.
SHORTEN: I want the scheme to be around and, you know, sure, some people are screaming, and we'll work through it. Maybe there's a couple of therapies there which will. We're setting up an evidence committee. Would you believe there wasn't always an evidence committee?
O’KEEFE: Will goat therapy pass the evidence test?
SHORTEN: I don't want to take on the goat lobby, but I'm yet to be convinced.
O’KEEFE: Like, who's doing goat therapy? You ever tried it?
SHORTEN: Oh, some of these things. The one - okay, listen, I part of the issue when I talk about the list is the scheme is not a joke. It's helping hundreds of thousands of people. But some of the things we banned are bordering on humorous. The one which even I had a bit of a chuckle at it, was mastermind coaching. Now I didn't - people might say we need that as politicians, maybe we do.
O’KEEFE: I was gonna say, maybe we should apply that to cabinet.
SHORTEN: Yeah, no, it's all right. But no, I could see where you're going, but I don't mind that. But it shouldn't be getting an NDIS payment to pay for it.
O’KEEFE: Minister, appreciate you coming on. Thanks so much.
SHORTEN: All right Chris. Cheers.
O’KEEFE: That's Bill Shorten. He's the Minister for the NDIS.
