SUBJECTS: NDIS reforms

DAVID PENBERTHY, HOST: Well, it's a very opportune breaking at eight this morning, because on the same day that major reforms and savings are being announced to the NDIS, we have the Minister for the NDIS, not just here in Adelaide, but here in our studio in Adelaide. Bill Shorten is with us here at FiveAA HQ this morning. Minister, good morning and thanks so much for coming in.

BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Good morning gentlemen. Thanks for having me here.

PENBERTHY: Now look, we've had, we've done a lot of work lately. Mr. Shorten, on the NDIS. And we've had a few local cases that have been in the headlines. There was another one too, that I spoke to your office about myself earlier this week, which very, very kindly has been resolved. But in a in a broader sense, we'll start with the big sort of headline figures. This thing has grown like mad and was on target to become, I think, the biggest budgetary item, bigger than the age pension. What are the reforms that you've put in place? How much are you going to save, and is it possible to do that without reducing the level of service that people have come to rely on?

SHORTEN: Yes, it is possible to improve the scheme without undermining its fundamental values. When I became Minister nearly three years ago, the reality is there was over half a million people on the scheme, changing a lot of lives for the better, hundreds of thousands of lives for the better, a lot of very good service providers. But there has been insufficient attention to the administration of the scheme and that has changed. So, one issue was that the scheme was almost becoming the only lifeboat in the ocean. So as soon as you have a disability, everyone says, oh, that's an NDIS matter. Well, the fact of the matter is, the NDIS is only designed for personal budgets for the most profoundly disabled, not for everyone.

But the states have been good. Peter Malinauskas, Mally, he's a rock star. He's been helping lead the States and working with Nat Cook here to make sure we start developing with Amanda Rishworth, working services up outside the scheme. So that's one reform, not everyone needs to flock to the NDIS. And within the scheme itself, there was no back-office payments checking. Like, I don't want to make people, you know, just sort of drive off the road as they're listening here. But it was possible for people to draw down 20 and $30,000 out of their packages with no invoices.

We see some service providers, you know, you have a shower chair and then you have an NDIS shower chair. And guess what? They're identical. But when it's called an NDIS shower chair, it's four times as much. We've now made that illegal. 92% of service providers are currently unregistered. Like, imagine having a system where you can drive on Adelaide roads. You can have the driver's license system or the not the driver's license system. So, we're overhauling how we register. We're overhauling how we assess people, making it consistent. We also, we've put a sort of in and out list what you can spend your resources on. And whilst that's led to tears at bedtime by some of the dodgy providers with crystal therapy and other therapies which are just not evidence based, the truth of the matter is it's now providing clarity.

All of this means that we can get the growth of the scheme to about 8% when, the year before I became the Minister, it was 23%, but next year we're on track to have growth at only 12%, so we're still investing.

PENBERTHY: So, about a billion bucks, you're looking at saving?

SHORTEN: Well, we've saved a billion. We've spent $1 billion less than we thought we would in May. So, for the financial year 2023/24, we thought it would be 42.5 billion. And it's actually come in under $42 billion, which means that we're just running the scheme better. That doesn't mean that we're not providing services. There'll be more people on the scheme next year than this year. There'll be more money invested in people next year than this year. But what we are saying is, if you're getting a service, is it a quality service? Is it, are you not being price gouged? You know, yesterday in the Downing Street court in Sydney, we, through long investigations, three dodgy gentlemen or two dodgy gentlemen and a lady, are going to jail for ripping off $5.8 million. We've set up a criminal task force. We've got 21 Commonwealth agencies. You know, to channel my inner Clint Eastwood, I say to dodgy providers, do you feel lucky? Because we will catch you.

PENBERTHY: Have there been any successful prosecutions under those laws?

SHORTEN: Yes. We've got 56 people are in court or on the desk of the relevant public prosecutor, Director of Public Prosecutions, 500 investigations. We've released some information this morning. Under my predecessors, yes, the Liberals, they had a safeguards commission which is meant to handle complaints. But that's where complaints used to go to die. It was not transparent. This year we've just after - we've tripled the number of people working in the complaints Commission from 367 to 1052. We've given them money. When I put in an acting administrator into the Complaints Commission to liven it up. He was a former policeman. I said, tell me what you found, Mike. And Mike said, oh, you've got state of the art investigation systems for 1988. So, we've upgraded the ICT. Now the complaints have gone up 78%, my usual, you know, Ratbag critics say, oh, that proves that everyone's unhappy because you're the Minister. No, it just means for the first time, we're following up the complaints. They've always been there.

PENBERTHY: Minister we've got some callers with questions for you. Geraldine's on the line Geraldine good morning to you.

CALLER: Hi Bill. I'm getting a ramp put in and there's a quote on it, it’s $17,000.

SHORTEN: Oh, that's rubbish.

CALLER: Yeah. Now I believe that they're ripping the system off. And this this man, he's. That's all he does. Him and his two sons. And they employed, more or less employed by my provider. And I just hope the government can do something to get a cheaper ramp for me, because I haven't been outside my home for 11 months. If there was a fire here, I'd burn to death because I can't go up and down the steps and I've got to wait another till June or July next year to save up enough money to pay for the ramp.

SHORTEN: Well, I don't know if you're on the NDIS or another government payment scheme?

CALLER: My Aged Care.

SHORTEN: Okay, well, what we'll do is if we can get your details offline, I don't know if a ramp should cost $17,000, but my gut says that must be a beautiful ramp.

PENBERTHY: Yeah. The on ramp to the New South Road extension cost that much.

SHORTEN: Yeah, it sounds like a piece of art. Um, so what we have seen, and Geraldine, thanks for calling, is just because it's the government money and a government package doesn't give some contractors the God given right to rip taxpayers and people off. So, we've now in the NDIS, I've now got through the Competition Commission laws which say you cannot be charged more for an identical service or product than if you weren't on the scheme. So, what we can do is you can, what it means is if they were selling you an NDIS ramp, we're now allowed to look at the books of the company and see what they charge other people for ramps, and if it's if it's less that they charge another punter than someone on the NDIS, that's against the law now.

PENBERTHY: So, it should be. Minister, there's another local story we've been following closely. Listener by the name of Alex Castoroides, who has called in. I just note who explained to us his situation. A severely disabled daughter who requires two on one care all day, had been in school and receiving terrific care, and they'd had a good experience on the NDIS. That ended, and he's had some trouble continuing it, so much so they've had to sell their business. He's told us his family home has been at risk. He's on the line now. Alex, good morning to you. You're speaking with the NDIS Minister, Bill Shorten.

CALLER: Good morning. Good morning.

SHORTEN: Good morning, Alex.

CALLER: Minister. Yeah. Just quickly touch on my daughter's case. Um, she finished school last year, and we spent the whole year preparing her to come out into the public and be part of the, you know, the wide world out there. And we put in a change of circumstance with NDIS and - because obviously we had to fill that gap between 9 and 3 where she needed care, where she used to be at school. Instead of giving us the extra care, we actually got our, our funds slashed. And the person that made the decision said that Georgia only needed one on one care. She has got a two on one restraining order set up through [inaudible]. She has all the reports from her psychologist and OT that she does need two on one care at all times. And when this decision was made, it just destroyed our lives. Where, like Will said, I had to sell my business to look after my, I had to close my business, actually, to look after my daughter to help her. And, you know, we did the review. The gentleman used old information, that worked for NDIS, and quoted things when George was at school not being in public. And we did a review of the review. The lady totally bunged that up. She asked for the new information. We provided it to her again. She didn't use the new information. She thought we didn't give it to her. We gave her the reference number of the call we did with NDIS to say this is where we've uploaded all the information and here's the email. And, you know, her response was, oh, I saw the email from my colleague, but I thought it was an American date, so I didn't open it.

So that was her reasoning. And she used the old information for my daughter's schooling days, to say her, she sticks with her judgment. It's only one on one care and we were not going to give you any extra funding. So, we followed the process, and we applied for the tribunal. With the help of Senator Nat Cook, the federal health Minister, they've all helped me and sent emails to your office. We haven't had much response, and much help. And I've been in the Advertiser. I've been on 5AA trying to get this hurried up because my daughter's health was spiralling out of control and mental health, that is. To the point where four weeks ago, um, she was out of control. We had to call the ambulance. The poor girl that was looking after her on her own just couldn't control her anymore. The ambulance took her to the QEH, and she was put in an induced coma due to her state, for three weeks. And she's just come out of the induced coma. They did all the testing on her. Her health is perfectly fine, and they've put it down to her situation of losing her carers and all of that situation that the NDIS put us through with the bunged-up decisions that they made.

You know, we're on the we've got no savings no more. No one's, no one's helping us in a hurry. And now that the, the next excuse is, oh, you've signed up with the tribunal so we can’t help you. And that's from your office. So, you know, what do you want us to do? That's what I want to know. Like the NDIS is there for specifically for my daughter. And I praise you for what you're doing now. It's amazing. And I can't believe it wasn't done earlier, what you're what you're doing now. But my daughter is sitting here on the couch having to learn how to walk again, how to talk again. And we're in a mess.

And this system, from April to now, we're still fighting and sitting by my daughter's bedside watching her, the tube down her throat, not knowing if she's going to live anymore. You know, I still have to take calls, and I still have to try and fight the NDIS and the tribunal system to try and get, you know, put back what my daughter needs. And I'm one of many. And, you know, you just said before, the system is there for people like my daughter. But I'm sorry, but it's failed dismally. The workers that, the worker that did that last review of the review, you know, I know nothing's going to happen to her. But if she could come now to my house and see my daughter the way she is because of her silly decision, of not bothering to read any of the new reports we gave, not bothering to read any of the incident reports that we gave…

PENBERTHY: Minister, can anything be done in Alex's case to at least get this process moving along a little bit more quickly so he can get some clarity?

SHORTEN: Yeah. First of all, Alex, it can't be easy having to share that story. And you're a good dad, and I know you're doing your absolute level best. And I'm sorry that you've had a bad experience with the Agency, so no ifs or buts. I'm sorry. What I understand about your case is that the package was north of $300K, for a year? I understand that on October the 30th, the matter, that plan has been kept at the same level for the next six months while you go through the appeals process?

CALLER: Yeah.

SHORTEN: The fact of the matter is, there is a legal system. And if something's before the courts, I can't just simply step in and act as judge. You know, there's a separation of powers between the politician and the legal process. But I do understand that the plan you had last year has now been approved on the 30th of October for the next six months. At the same level I get. There's also issues about - the school system at least had your daughter, but now post school and you leave school, it's a bit of a black hole. And then, there's no I don't think there's been enough work - this is not you, but this is the system - that when people finish school and they've got a profound disability, they're sort of left to their own devices. So, we've set up some projects to try and work out how we can do better stuff for school leavers so that it's not the, ‘left to your own devices’ that you've been in.

Just on the, the general point. So, on your matter, your plan has been rolled over for the next six months. Status quo payment. That was decided, I think, on the 30th of October. But just to other people who are listening, this is a problem. But God only knows what would happen if we didn't have an NDIS at all. And no other country in the world has it, so that doesn't help you. But going to the general issue, I don't know what this country would do without the NDIS. And the problem we got is that in your matter, you feel that the evidence hasn't been looked at properly, the people making the decisions haven't taken into account matters. When I became the Minister, there were 4000 staff at the agency. Now, my predecessors capped the number of people at the agency at 4000. In 2017, there were 4000 people working on matters like yours, your daughter's, everyone else, and there were 170,000 people on the scheme.

When I became the Minister, there's over half a million people on the scheme and still 4000 people. So, we've now started to invest in planner capability because I want you to have a more consistent experience. But anyway, I know your matters in the courts, but I do know that rather than get nothing until the court matters resolved, your plan has been rolled over for the next six months so that there are funds there.

PENBERTHY: All right. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that story, Alex. It's full on and thanks to you as the Minister too, Mr. Shorten to, you know, take what Alex is saying as seriously as you have because -

SHORTEN: Oh, yeah.

PENBERTHY: - it's been a big story locally.

SHORTEN: Yeah, no, I get it. That’s tough.

PENBERTHY: Why can't that cap change?

SHORTEN: Oh, we have changed it.

PENBERTHY: How on earth can 4000 people look after? Because - and the case I mentioned the other day that I won't go into now, but it feels like half the battle is actually just getting responses from within the organisation, in the same way it is with My Aged Care?

SHORTEN: Yeah, to be fair to the Agency, they were underfunded, as was the complaints commission, but now we've put on an extra 2000 people, so it takes a while to get people up to speed. Of the leadership of the Agency, we have changed that. The new Chair of the Agency is Kurt Fearnley, who's just an amazing Australian, charismatic, smart, capable, passionate, doesn't take a backward step. The leadership of the Agency, of the top 11 people who were running it, there's one left. We've sort of changed the guard there, and now we're bringing in people and training them up.

We had a call centre which was contracted out, which meant that if you rang the call centre and they were getting nearly 2 million calls a year –

PENBERTHY: 2 million?

SHORTEN: Because of their contract, yeah, they couldn't get, they couldn't access the information. So, we're now bringing some of that in-house, but we're investing in the capability of the agency, more people and training them more so we hope we can get more consistent decision making.

PENBERTHY: It was a long chat in the end, but a good chat. We thank you. Thank you for coming in. Mr. Shorten, we'll catch up with you again soon.