E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: NDIS Section 10 lists; Middle East conflict
MATTHEW PANTELIS, HOST: As you'll know, the federal government is cracking down on what can and can't be paid for using the NDIS. An extensive list has been released and unproven or alternative therapies like yoga, hypnotherapy, cuddle therapy for goodness’ sake, have been ruled out. Vapes, home schooling, animal therapy gone as well. Let's have a chat to the federal NDIS Minister, Bill Shorten. Minister, Good morning.
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNENT SERVICES: Good morning, Matthew. How are you?
PANTELIS: All right Thank you. And can I say about time, frankly that this step has happened.
SHORTEN: Yeah, it is. Although some critics are saying we're rushing it. The reality is, for the last two and a half years, we've been reviewing, we've been consulting. It's one of the strategies to make sure the NDIS is here for future generations, is to have clarity about what you can use your NDIS personal budgets on and what you can't. And that list is gathering all the information and experience in one place, so people know the rules.
PANTELIS: Is it definitive now? I mean, you'll change it as time goes on, presumably.
SHORTEN: Listen periodically, maybe evidence shows something works, there will be - yes, it's pretty definitive, but it's not like God level arrogant. In other words, if people if common sense and practical measures come up and inadvertent consequences are discovered, well, then, you know, we'll move it. But this is pretty much the list, yeah.
PANTELIS: I can't believe cuddle therapy was a thing. I mean, really? And presumably cruise ships, sex work, that sort of thing?
SHORTEN: Yep. All gone. I went online yesterday, and you can get a certificate in cuddle therapy for several hundred dollars, like, I just… I don't know, like, sorry, no doubt there'll be people who are into - anyway, I'm not bagging anyone.
PANTELIS: No.
SHORTEN: But I'm just saying, I don't want to use taxpayer money. This is about helping people with severe and profound disability have fulfilling lives. It's not about lining the pockets of a small number of opportunistic providers who just see government money and, you know, sniff it out and want to get their paws on it.
PANTELIS: The next thing, and I don't know if this is included in what was announced yesterday, not that I've seen anyway is cracking down on providers who have an item for sale, but they add to that price when they hear it's either aged care or NDIS.
SHORTEN: Yeah, we've actually cracked down on that. We I convinced the ACCC 6 or 8 months ago and we got them some funding. It is illegal in Australia to offer an identical service to a person on the Scheme, at a higher price than who's not on the Scheme. You know, let me use the example, you might get someone who does your physical training at $90 bucks an hour. And then they say for a person with disability it's $150. Like I get if there's particular techniques for people with disability, then you can differentiate price familiar because you can charge a higher price doesn't mean you should.
PANTELIS: Yeah. Yeah exactly. And I know with cancellations and directly with my mum who's on aged care where there's been a cancellation of a podiatrist and the cancellation fee is $150 bucks and you go, well, you're only charging that because you know you can because it's taxpayer dollars.
SHORTEN: In the NDIS, and maybe my predecessors are guilty of naivety, but you can charge up to 90% cancellation fee. But that doesn't mean you're should I, you know, like say you've got a kid with challenging behaviours, um, you've got to go to a school appointment, so you've got to cancel your physio. You know, charging up to 90% of the actual fee when, if you or I cancelled our physio, it might be 0 or 25%.
PANTELIS: Exactly.
SHORTEN: It's not on. And it's not as if people can't fill their books full of, you know, other people to service. Yeah.
PANTELIS: That's absolutely right. All right. So, you are getting blowback, which surprises me that people would complain.
SHORTEN: It's noisy but not numerous, I think, not that people will, but if they look at schedule one of the regulations which I've signed into law and schedule two, schedule one is what's allowed. Schedule two is what's not allowed. I reckon over 90% plus of Australians will say, yeah, that just makes sense. Now, there are some people who are worried about unintended consequences, and I say to them, we'll work it through. There are some people who are worried that there's stuff that the states should be doing, and if the NDIS doesn't do it, no one will do it. Okay, that's a worry. But we've got to get the states to do their thing, because we shouldn't be paying for home schooling or changing the desks at a school. That's the education system. If you're in an outpatient’s ward at a hospital, just because you're on the NDIS doesn't mean you get told to go away. If you're getting prescription drugs through the PBS, that's where you get it. But listen for participants, and they're the people I really care about, most of everything is not going to change because the rorts, while they're colourful are not - you know, most people are not doing the wrong thing or charging for the wrong service. So, I think this will rebuild public confidence in the Scheme over time as well.
PANTELIS: Yeah, absolutely. And as you've said before, ensure it remains viable into the future, which needs to happen.
SHORTEN: Well, that's right. This is - no country in the world has a personal budget Scheme for people with profound and severe impairment.
PANTELIS: Yeah.
SHORTEN: And I want to keep that. And it is changing lives for the better. But I'm just not going to allow people to rip it off.
PANTELIS: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think taxpayers would, would 100% agree with you on that point.
SHORTEN: And most people with disability by the way. They don't – like, they no one should ever make the mistake of thinking people with disability and their carers are dumb.
PANTELIS: Yeah.
SHORTEN: And they don't like being treated like human ATMs.
PANTELIS: Yeah, absolutely, with taxpayers’ money? Yeah. For sure.
SHORTEN: Sure.
PANTELIS: While I have you, I just wonder, as a former leader of the Labor Party, your view on the protests particularly, I mean, what's happening over in the Mid East as well, you might have a view on that in terms of what should happen there. But the protests, I've already had calls this morning from people talking about how wrong it is, that groups aligned with terror organisations can display, or protesters can display, those flags of those groups in marches across the country. What what's your view on it?
SHORTEN: I think it's horrific. Listen, I can respect how hurt and how emotional and how concerned people who might be of a Palestinian background or heritage, or a Jewish heritage or a Lebanese heritage. You know, the scenes are terrible, but that does not justify bringing those arguments to these shores. And furthermore, Hezbollah are a terrorist organization who sent thousands of missiles into their neighbour. I mean, if Western Australia or Victoria was sending missiles into South Australia, and terror organizations, like you wouldn't allow those terror organizations to have their placards march up and down the mall in Adelaide, would you?
PANTELIS: Absolutely not. That's right.
SHORTEN: There's no cause for it. The other thing is, the 7th of October is an anniversary of the first anniversary of the murder of 1250 Jewish people in Israel, the capture of hostages and the rape of other victims. That's not a day to sort of do your protest on you know, and that goes for anyone at any time. The Christchurch mosque massacre was terrible in 2021, and I went over there and visited with the victims. But, you know, I wouldn't expect some fundamentalist anti-Islam group to be allowed to march on that day or indeed any day. I just - can't people just understand, put themselves in the shoes of others? Now you might, some listeners might get annoyed and say, oh, you don't know, or you're just apologising for what's going on over there. I'm not. But don't bring it here.
PANTELIS: Yeah, 100%. Bill Shorten, thank you for your time and well done on the uni gig. I suppose we might hear from you in that role in the future.
SHORTEN: Oh, maybe if there's things to be done. You’ve got to, you know, upset the applecart, and challenge the status quo. Why not?
PANTELIS: Absolutely. Good on you. Thank you for your time today.
SHORTEN: Good on you, mate. Cheers.
