E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: CFMEU; Unions
SARAH FERGUSON (HOST): Bill Shorten was the National Secretary of the AWU between 2001 and 2007. Now in the Albanese cabinet, he says the ALP will move to stop donations from the CFMEU when its national executive meets tomorrow. I spoke to him earlier. Bill Shorten, welcome to 7.30.
BILL SHORTEN MP, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Good evening, Sarah.
FERGUSON: So, the Government announced today that Fair Work will appoint an administrator to take over the east coast divisions of the CFMEU. What should the threshold be for removing corrupt officials?
SHORTEN: If they've broken the law, they're not welcome in the trade union movement. Let's be very, very, very clear. I'd just say at the outset, everyone should be afforded natural justice. But the evidence, which has been dramatically and importantly revealed by the media in recent days, demands nothing less than a full independent investigation of the CFMEU and its east coast branches. That's exactly what the Government's done. I mean, I've got a very clear threshold. To answer your question, the union movement in Australia has done a lot of good, looked after a lot of people. It has some ability through its collective strength to do these things. But no union or individual has the right to step outside and pursue their own agendas for personal financial gain or indeed the gain of bikies or criminals. Industrial action in the pursuit of workers’ wages is fine, but when it's in the pursuit of any other purpose, it is a red-line which has been crossed and no one should give any protection to these people.
FERGUSON: It's important to know on what terms the administrator will be operating, because we know that the CFMEU leadership has repeatedly insisted that allegations of wrongdoing are not enough reason to remove people. Will that now change?
SHORTEN: It's got to change. Let's be really clear. The CFMEU has to have an independent administrator installed. They have demonstrated, despite what they've said, they cannot fix these issues on their own.
FERGUSON: So, what does that mean for the current head of the CFMEU? Because Zach Smith made his ongoing support for John Setka clear. Although saying that the allegations were serious, he described him as a legend. Should Zack Smith remain in place if a complete overhaul of the CFMEU is to take place?
SHORTEN: I'm going to let the administrator make those decisions about individuals. But for me, it is a black and white issue. Unions exist to represent the working conditions of their members. Make them safe, get them okay wages. But any official at any time is merely the custodian of the bigger cause. And when people abuse that, when we have bikies or people masquerading to be acting in the interests of working people, when they're lining their own pockets, or when they're working for corrupt contractors, or they're taking bribes, or indeed the companies who are offering the bribes, they must be rooted out. It's not enough just to keep going business as usual. And that message must get through now.
FERGUSON: The Queensland head of the CFMEU today, Michael Ravbar, said that the Prime Minister has, and I quote, panicked and soiled himself over unproven allegations in the media. What happens if the CFMEU refuses to cooperate with the administrator?
SHORTEN: No one is above the law. If I go back to what I said at the opening, sure, everyone should be afforded natural justice, but there's enough evidence, there's enough disclosure, there's enough footage which says that something fundamental has got to give, that you can't have patched up members of bikie gangs as your shop stewards. The construction industry in Australia is worth billions of dollars. Organised crime is no doubt attracted to syphoning some of that money for themselves. But the union cannot be in any fashion part of organised crime and arguing that just leave at business as usual. It doesn't wash anymore. It simply doesn't wash. As you say.
FERGUSON: This is an issue of the infiltration of organised crime. Is there any justification for the Labor party to continue to accept donations from an organisation the CFMEU infiltrated in that way?
SHORTEN: I fully expect the national executive to make sure that there is no more donations received from the CFMEU until their house is cleaned.
FERGUSON: And what about the donations that have already been made to the party? We know they run to hundreds and hundreds of thousands, to millions, in fact, including large donations under John Setka when he was running the CFMEU construction division in Victoria. That money is tainted now. Should it be handed back?
SHORTEN: I think the last significant donations were a couple of years ago. I mean, I guess we can get on the path of asking the nationals to hand back their vaping money.
FERGUSON: That's not the question, Minister Shorten. The question is about serious allegations.
SHORTEN: I'm coming to your answer, criminal activity. So, yeah, I absolutely am. But what I'm saying is the best way forward is that we're not taking any CFMEU money anymore. The evidence has come out. It's there. We are putting a stop on it. Prime Minister Albanese in 2019, made moves against individuals in the union, not to be members of the party. But I would say to listeners now, perhaps it's time that we tackle all money in elections. We need to just eliminate, I think, some of the massive donations which come generally to Australian politics.
FERGUSON: To be clear, as we speak tonight, you're confident the ALP has reached that decision to ban all further donations from the CFMEU?
SHORTEN: They meet tomorrow. I'm not on the executive. If I was as sure as a horse that I could pick on Saturday at the races, that would be what the national exec does, I’d bet on it. Ok, people, we know that action has to be taken. The leadership's been from premiers and the Prime Minister. I don't expect any part of the party to be any different.
FERGUSON: You just raised the fact that Anthony Albanese, as Opposition Leader, did expel John Setka from the party. Why did the party continue to take donations from him after he was considered persona non grata?
SHORTEN: First of all, that was an individual matter to do with a contested family law issue and comments about Rosie Batty. In terms of the CFMEU, we're not taking their money. It has stopped.
FERGUSON: The CFMEU is reported to have used threats and extortion to move your old union, the AWU, off big construction jobs in Victoria. But you say you heard nothing about the increasing presence of criminals in the Victorian construction scene. Is this credible?
SHORTEN: Well, the demarcation battles with the AWU are my former union. They are the stuff, both of fact and of legend. I've had many run ins when I was an AWU official with the CFMEU. This element, though, of organised crime, no, I wasn't aware of that and I'm not aware of it now. And I'll tell you what, we have police who monitor crime. They haven't come forward with this. We had, the Liberals created their whole expensive, multi-million dollar agency. They had a royal commission. That Royal Commission was capable of taping phone calls, of investigating bank records, interviewing witnesses in camera. So, no, I don't know what CFMEU's official's personal transactions, out of sight are up to, but I do accept the proposition irrevocably from the revelations this weekend. And that's why it was a news story that this union has. This is not just one or two rotten apples. There is a pathology or a culture in parts of that union that see the importation of organised crime, foot soldiers or bikies, into positions of responsibility, perhaps as workplace delegates. This is not allowed to. This should not be allowed to happen. And I think that the union must look at, and perhaps not just them, a fit and proper test for not just their officials, but for their people who hold voluntary positions within the union.
FERGUSON: Michaelia Cash said, and I quote, if you get rid of the ABCC, the construction watchdog, costs will go up and the CFMEU will run wild. She was right, wasn't she?
SHORTEN: Well, then, what did the ABCC do to catch a bikie? Did they ever arrest a single - did they ever find a single bikie or a drug dealer?
FERGUSON: I think. I think the question is, what would happen in its absence? What would happen next?
SHORTEN: Well, we're putting in an administrator. The reality is, you and I both know, and Australia knows, that when they set up Royal Commissions into unions, that's just as a political point to try and smear Labor leaders. The problem for the Libs is they need to get over their hang up about being anti union and join us and be anti crook. Now, the truth of the matter is that there are some crooks who've infiltrated the CFMEU. I also remind Michaelia Cash that there are some crooks at the big end of town, too. So, let's get over our ideological bulldust. This country does not have time for that. And let's deal with the organised crime.
FERGUSON: Bill Shorten, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
SHORTEN: Pleasure.
