E&OE TRANSCRIPT

SUBJECTS: CFMEU ALLEGATIONS AND GOVERNMENTS’ RESPONSE.

ALI MOORE (HOST): Bill Shorten is a regular on this program, he's the Minister for the NDIS but, of course, before he went into politics he was National Secretary of the Australian Workers Union. Bill Shorten, welcome back.

BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Hi, Ali. How are you?

MOORE: I'm well, thank you. Did these revelations shock you?

SHORTEN: Well, some of them do. Trade unionists, the vast bulk of them, are honest, law abiding people, and so are most of their representatives. But the idea that anyone in the trade union movement is operating with bikies and criminal gangs, that betrays the whole idea of Australian trade unionism.

MOORE: So, what needs to happen?

SHORTEN: Well first of all, our Minister Tony Burke who's the Federal Minister for Industrial Relations, he says all options are on the table. I know he's getting the best possible advice about the range of remedies to deal with what we've seen. But I was listening to what you were saying in the preamble, and I hear the business interests saying, we've got to investigate the union. First of all, they had a Royal Commission into unions, and they spend more time investigating Julia Gillard and myself than investigating the Victorian CFMEU. What we need is actual action. And the other point I really want to make here, I've got no time for people who betray the cause. You know, at the end of the day, it's a privilege to serve working people in this country. It doesn't matter if you're a business leader or a journalist, politician or a union rep, and people who are engaged in standover thuggery [indistinct] despise. But I would just say to that guy from the Business Council who wants to investigate the union, for everyone who's doing the standover, what business person is also engaged? Because for everyone who takes a bribe there's someone giving a bribe. And I think the construction sector needs to have a good long look at itself.

MOORE: Well, that's a really interesting point. And I was going to say to you, I mean, if these are- they are only allegations but they're really serious allegations and there are many of them.

SHORTEN: Yes, there is.

MOORE: The fact that they come through a sort of - and we should applaud The Age and the paper's stablemates for doing the investigation - but the fact that you could have something like this that does not come because of any official oversight body, any official organisation that's keeping tabs of what goes on in what is such an important industry, it's because a bunch of journos got together and did some research. Is that good enough?

SHORTEN: No, but it is to the credit of the journalists involved. I think there have been people complaining about some of the standover stuff. My old show, the AWU - which, admittedly, I should declare I'm a life member of but I haven't worked for 17 years - I mean, they've complained in the past about, you know, what they think was unfair treatment for companies who had collective agreements with them. But this bikie stuff, I mean, I don't know if people have put it in the too hard basket in the past but there's an opportunity for the trade union movement and for the community generally to say, we don't want criminals in our construction industry. Mind you, we don't want criminals in any aspect of society.

MOORE: So how do- Okay, what's the appropriate next step? And there's a couple of things that are happening that, from someone who is familiar with the union movement, I'm interested in asking you about it just what it means for lay people who don't understand - first of all, the Victorian branch has been placed in administration So, in practice, what does that actually mean?

SHORTEN: That seems to be an internal decision made by the union. I must stress my job is Government Services and the NDIS. We've got a very capable Minister, Tony Burke, who's going to, you know, be giving official positions - and I don't want to be a commentator. Having said all of that, the national executive of the union appears to have said they want to investigate what's happening in the Victorian branch - for them to decide, I'm not a member of that union or that executive [indistinct]...

MOORE: No, sure. I just wonder about the terminology. Does administration mean that the national executive now controls the Victorian branch?

SHORTEN: That's what I assume, yeah. That's what I assume, yes.

MOORE: Okay. And then the Premier wants the construction division suspended from the State Labor Party. So, that means- in practice does that really only mean that if there was going to be a state Labor conference, they couldn't turn up? Or does it mean more than that?

SHORTEN: It means more than that. It means that if they're suspended or and- you know, I think that's where we're going, they don't have a say in the pre-selection of MPs. They don't have a say in the decision making of the Labor Party.

MOORE: The Premier has also asked that the political donations be banned during the investigation, should the Federal Government follow suit?

SHORTEN: The Labor Party is a federation. The national executive, no doubt, will consider these issues. I understand that the Premier has asked the national executive for a view on all of this. It'll be the state premiers who- unions affiliate to states, they don't affiliate to the national organisation. Anyway, the party organisation, I know, will be having a pretty long hard look at all of this and I just think the old status quo is going to be questioned pretty severely. And let's be clear, it was Prime Minister Albanese who made steps to move on some of the individuals. Yeah, so this has been- maybe it's been a long time coming, but there is an opportunity for the trade union movement to say, hey, there is a standard we will accept and there's a red line we won't cross. Now, I don't know the ins and outs of every allegation and I don't want to start prejudging every matter but, on the other hand, something's not right here in the construction sector. And I think ordinary people know this. I think the newspapers and the media have revealed it and I think we're seeing governments moving on what we're seeing.

MOORE: You're listening to Bill Shorten and we're talking about the allegations around the CFMEU. So, Bill Shorten from- and I guess this is where it's hard, it gets a little complicated and it's hard for people because you- okay, these allegations are going to be investigated.  

SHORTEN: Sure.

MOORE: The Premier says that she's referring them to IBAC and to the police in Victoria. You've got the Federal Government - as you pointed out, the Minister Tony Burke, he was on ABC TV yesterday, he said that he's looking at, you know, what options he has. You've got the National Union who's now taken over control and says that they'll put in place an independent lawyer or someone who will oversee an investigation. What is the appropriate way of doing this so it's not that it's a little bit here and a little bit there, that it's actually a comprehensive pulling apart?

SHORTEN: I think that's probably where the federal minister comes into play. He's going to look at what the options are and everything is on the table. I- you know, fair points to Tony Burke, he's going to cross his T's and dot his I's. What he can't do is make a premature judgement which turns out to be legally weak, and some bunch of ratbags or someone says you can't get it up in court - then that's just going to annoy everyone. But, I've got no doubt the Federal Minister will provide an updated approach, comprehensive in terms of what's going on in coming days.

MOORE: On the interim, while all of this is going on, should there be some limitations on that part of the union being able to get on to work sites, or is that just completely impractical?

SHORTEN: I don't know, I haven't turned my mind to that. There's a simple rule - don't break the law, don't ask for kickbacks, don't engage with bikies. Like, you probably don't need an inquiry to tell you the obvious. The trick in life is to be as straight as you can be.

MOORE: But I guess the obvious, Minister, is- that might be the obvious, but then the obvious from the other point of view is, yeah, so why is it that it's an Age journalist who's telling us that that's potentially happening?

SHORTEN: Well, it'll be whistle-blowers and people who've given The Age journalist the material. Listen, I see some conservatives fulminating that, you know, not having an Australian building commission is the problem - this stuff didn't start yesterday. The problem is that where there's cash industries, where you've got the opportunity for organised crime to launder gains from illegal activities, it's that you've got to be vigilant. I mean, I don't know what the state police say about what they have or haven't known. We know there was that Trade Union Royal Commission, which spent more time playing political games than getting into the heart of the construction sector. You know, there's been too much politics in this and not enough truth telling and I think that there's an opportunity here to straighten things up in a way which might be a once in a generation opportunity. And I say that on the basis that unions have a role in workplaces to get their members, you know, better safety, better conditions. But you can't do it using middlemen and, hack- hack gangsters.

MOORE: Bill Shorten, we do appreciate you coming on the program, many thanks.

SHORTEN: No worries. Thank you.