E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: NDIS Section 10 lists; Middle East conflict
CRAIG ZONCA, CO-HOST: Major changes are coming to the National Disability Insurance Scheme. These will come into effect from tomorrow.
LORETTA RYAN, CO-HOST: Yeah, there are some big adjustments too, ranging from things like grocery shopping and rent to using funds to pay for things like alternative therapies and concert tickets.
ZONCA: They'll be out according to this comprehensive list of what will and won't be funded. It was issued by the Minister for the NDIS Bill Shorten. Minister, good morning to you.
SHORTEN: Good morning.
ZONCA: How widespread are you saying is the misuse of NDIS funds?
SHORTEN: A lot of the items which we're saying are definitively ruled out reflect past experience, but I wouldn't say it's totally widespread. The Scheme is about $41.5 billion. It's helping 660,000 people. It's quite amazing. And for many, many people, they're spending their money correctly and it's changing lives for the better. But there's been an element of naivety over the last decade where there's Government money, you do get opportunistic behaviour from a minority of service providers who are selling snake oil or just getting in between the cracks and ripping off money, and that has to stop.
RYAN: What about the impact on those people who have been using it fairly?
SHORTEN: Well that’s fine, that’s business as usual.
RYAN: But the things they've been using that are off now and that can't be funded. I mean, that is going to affect them, I suppose?
SHORTEN: Yeah. What I would say is there's always been various lists, but it's never had the force of a law, so that's the first thing. For most people, this is zero change. Most of the money goes to investment in support from allied health professionals or disability care workers. But it is the case that periodically, some services have snuck in which really have no basis in evidence. Or alternatively, and this is the other area, which isn't quite as sort of media sexy, but it's important, the NDIS isn't meant to be the only lifeboat in the ocean for profoundly disabled people. So, we're making clear that if your child is at school, it's the obligation in the school to provide them with a desk, not the NDIS. Or if you're going to get prescription medicine, it's the PBS who should be paying for it, not the NDIS. The NDIS was never aimed to replace mainstream services for people with disabilities, but provide additional care which was never getting provided. But now what we've seen is sort of mission creep and everything becomes an NDIS matter which is not where the Scheme should be.
ZONCA: Well, some of the things on the list that have been ruled out include, you know, things like cuddle therapy, tarot card reading and like how was that even paid for in the first place, Bill Shorten?
SHORTEN: It should never have been.
RYAN: So, how was it?
SHORTEN: My predecessors, and I know people hate hearing politics and one side saying the other side were crap at their day job, but, you know, let's just call it straight here. The reality is there was no proper checking of invoices, so invoices just get submitted and paid. Did you know that between 5 and 6:30pm Monday to Friday, you could put in an invoice and no one would ever check it?
ZONCA: You're kidding me?
SHORTEN: So, no, that stopped now. I've stopped that. But, you know, yeah, I was as surprised as you are. And I've got to say, part of the problem when I talk about problems in the Scheme is some listeners will say ah, it's all rubbish, you shouldn't have it. And other people who are getting good support out of the Scheme go oh my God, we're going to lose all this good stuff, which is actually making a real difference to my child or my family member. We're just being truthful. Most of the Scheme works well, but it was growing too fast and I want to make sure that the people who are getting the benefit of the Scheme are the taxpayers and the participants, not some opportunistic service providers. And they're a minority who see Government money and think, you beauty, time for a second veranda on my beach house.
ZONCA: And it's about the sustainability of the Scheme. It's costing billions, it will cost billions more in the future. One thing on there is that the NDIS will no longer pay rent. I'm interested in that and whether that then is an inhibitor to getting appropriate accommodation for people with a disability, Bill Shorten?
SHORTEN: Yeah, good question. What the Scheme was never meant to do was replace the ordinary costs of living. It was to provide the additional resources which you experience as a person with a profound or severe disability. So, groceries and rent, everyone pays them. So, the Scheme wasn't to step in and do the ordinary things of life. People also get a Disability Support Pension, but when it comes to accommodation, the Scheme is funding around the clock carers for a significant proportion of people on the Scheme. So, that helps with their accommodation. The other thing is we provide, to be honest, north of $2 billion in specialist disability accommodation. So, there's a lot of intense support goes to help people live independently within the community. And I'm talking some really big figures. But just the ordinary rent or your rates, that is up to the person. What we do is we provide that additional element, of cost, which you incur as a person with a severe and profound disability.
RYAN: What about homeschooling? I see that's not going to be covered. What if a family does need that?
SHORTEN: Well, do you know what? Let's go and say hello to Mr and Mrs Education Department around Australia. The schools have got an obligation to look after people with disability. The NDIS wasn't intended to pay the Education Department. I mean, we don't pay for disabled people to listen to the ABC. We don't pay for, unless they need hearing aids, of course. But, you know, when NDIS people turn up at outpatient wards, at hospitals, they're not to be told by the hospital, oh, you're on the NDIS, go and see them. I found when I became the Minister, there'd been a two and a half year dispute about a snoring, a sleep apnea snoring device for a person with a disability. And we just said, stop, that's paid for by Medicare. Why are we even arguing? Either way. So, homeschooling really is when I understand if a parent feels their kid's getting bullied at school and there's no educational option. But that's on the Education Department to sort out. We’re not the default system for every person with a severe disability, the mainstream systems have to set up. That's not a crack at state governments or federal governments. It's just a fact of life.
ZONCA: Bill Shorten with you, the Minister for the NDIS on 612, ABC Brisbane. Just want to ask about what's going on in geopolitics as well, Minister. With a big escalation in the Middle east overnight, with Iran firing nearly 200 missiles at Israel. What's, how concerning do you see this development?
SHORTEN: It’s dreadful. These are ballistic missiles, 180 coming from Iran against Israel. I think it's a very ugly development in what's already been an ugly conflict. You know, at its core, Israel has the right to live within secure borders, but we desperately want peace in Gaza and in Lebanon and in Israel and in the West bank. But I will say this, Iran are bad actors. And you might say why is Bill saying that? They fund a lot of the terror movements right throughout the Middle east from, in five nation states, you know, in Syria, the Houthis in Yemen. But, you know, I can only hope this is a calculated step, that Iran's sort of shaking its fist at Israel. It seems like the Israelis shot down most of the missiles. Is it? I don't know, I hope that there's people realise the consequences of just going into all out war. That's, that ain't going to help anything anywhere. Full stop. It's a disaster.
ZONCA: Bill Shorten, thanks so much for your time this morning. Really appreciate it.
SHORTEN: All right, from cuddle therapy to the Middle East. Thank you.
ZONCA: I know that's quite the segue on a morning like this. It's a Wednesday here on 612 ABC Brisbane. Bill Shorten, the Minister for the NDIS.
