E&OE TRANSCRIPT

SUBJECTS: Robodebt Royal Commission report to be handed down today

LISA MILLAR, HOST: Welcome back on this Friday morning. You're watching News Breakfast. Great to have you company. After months of investigations, Australians are expected to learn within hours who was responsible for the unlawful Robodebt scheme. The report from the Royal Commission probe into the scheme is being handed down today and is expected to make clear how hundreds of thousands of false debt notices were sent to welfare recipients.

MICHAEL ROWLAND, HOST: The inquiry has already revealed government officials were repeatedly warned the program was unlawful but did nothing to stop it. The Government Services Minister, Bill Shorten joins us now from Canberra. Minister, good morning.

BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Good morning, Michael.

ROWLAND: I want to talk about the senior public servants, the former politicians potentially in the gun today, but I want to focus firstly with the victims. How important a day is this for them?

SHORTEN: Oh, this is a huge day for the victims. I had the opportunity to speak to Kath Madgwick and I've been messaging with Jenny Miller. These two ladies had precious sons, Jarrad and Rhys. They took their lives after getting Robodebt notices. So, for these very brave mothers today doesn't, and it can't, bring back their kids, which is really ultimately what they would really want. But they know that can't be, sadly. But in talking to them, whilst it's a stressful day and it triggers memories, it's also hopefully a day of vindication because these two mums, like literally hundreds of thousands of other people, were essentially gaslighted by their own government for a number of years. They were told that the scheme was lawful, and it wasn't. They were also told that, you know, the individual circumstances of their son's passing had nothing to do with the scheme. So, for these two ladies and for others who, you know, weren't able to get jobs, for people who had the stress of having to fight their own government in court, for the advocates who fought so hard, for the lawyers who in the Victorian Legal Aid and the class action who put their heart and soul into overturning this bad system, today is actually hopefully some vindication. And I think everyone who's watched the Royal Commission, the families, and the victims, have universally expressed their support for Catherine Holmes, Commissioner Catherine Holmes. Her no nonsense approach getting to the heart of matters incisively and her intolerance for rubbish and spin, I think has been of great comfort to the people who were put through an unlawful scheme by the previous government.

ROWLAND: Would you like to see consequences for any person held responsible for the unlawful nature of this scheme, for the devastating personal impacts? Would you like to see consequences held if they are so found to be culpable by the Commissioner?

SHORTEN: The Commission can find, can make adverse findings, against individuals. We'll have to see what they are. We'll have to see the nature of them. But generally, there should be accountability, yes. I don't want to prejudice any subsequent court actions, civil or criminal matters which may arise out of these findings. So, I don't want to get into any individual because I don't want to let any individual off the hook by prematurely commenting about circumstances. But after four and a half years of unlawful behaviour and not only the construction of an unlawful scheme, but the maintenance of an unlawful scheme, despite the farrago of complaints and the cacophony of unhappiness, the fact that they kept this freight train of misery going, someone's got to be responsible somewhere. And I was a bit appalled as I listened to the evidence, the number of times Coalition Ministers said, I don't know, I can't remember. I mean, it didn't - this government was exposed at its worst at the senior public service. The lack of curiosity, the lack of adherence to just conducting your power within the swim lanes of what's authorised by legislation. And they couldn't even do that.

ROWLAND: Is it your understanding that Commissioner Holmes sought an extension to her reporting deadline so she could report once the national anti-corruption body was set up and therefore, she'd have the avenue of potentially, potentially referring cases and people to the anti-corruption commission?

SHORTEN: Yes, that's correct. That is my understanding.

ROWLAND: And should one outcome of this finding today, this undoubtedly sweeping report be the fact that something like this will never happen again in Australia?

SHORTEN: Well, I think that's the only way we can do true justice to what's gone on is to make sure it can't happen again. I must say, today it's also, I think about all the staff at Services Australia, they have 30,000 pretty conscientious public servants. I think I feel for them today. Plenty of them complained about what was going on. There was a culture at the very top though, of not wanting to hear the problems, of retaliation. There was a real sense of fear amongst the frontline that if you complain too much, your opportunities in the service will be blocked. I spoke to Colleen Taylor yesterday. She gave some remarkable evidence in the Royal Commission. She's a sort of - she was a relatively junior employee in the whole system. She has, she spoke up. She contacted the leadership. She said this is not right. What's going on? Again, she's now retired out of Services Australia, but both she and I know that the frontline staff of Services Australia, who'll be opening up the Centrelink offices all over Australia this morning, they are excellent people. They want to do their very best, but they were let down by having incredibly poor leadership at the top. So, I think for them, and we can make sure this doesn't happen again, but there are basic things, aren't there, like check if what you're doing is legal before you do it. Make sure that when red flags are coming up, when there's not one complaint or two, but when there's just a consistent firehose of complaints and unhappiness, maybe the problem isn't the victim. Maybe the problem is the government. I have a very simple view of government and politics. The government is here to help people, not hurt them. The previous government hurt people. It didn't help them. It hurt the most vulnerable, who reasonably could have expected that when they needed help, that's what they would receive. Instead, they were given pain and unlawful treatment by the most powerful institutions in Australia.

ROWLAND: Full coverage of the Robodebt finding coming up. Minister, before we go on, I'll ask you about one of your colleagues, Claire O'Neill, a Home Affairs Minister who went to Twitter yesterday to call Donald Trump Jr, her words, a big baby for postponing his planned speaking tour of Australia. Given that Donald Trump senior has a credible chance of returning to the White House, was that appropriate language by a senior Australian government minister to years?

SHORTEN: I've been focusing on Robodebt at the last 24 hours. I haven't got to the, I haven't followed this matter that you raised. But I do know Claire O'Neill. I think she's an incredible Minister, and incredibly conscientious.

ROWLAND: Was it appropriate language, though? Would you have used that language?

SHORTEN: I'm not going to start second guessing tweets. There was a time back in 2016 where I said about Donald Trump when he was running for President that he had views which I thought were right out there. And I know everyone made a huha when I said that, but I think history has proven me right.

ROWLAND: Bill Shorten, appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.

SHORTEN: Thank you.