E&OE TRANSCRIPT

SUBJECTS: Disability Royal Commission; Albanese government housing policy; Greens political party; interest rates; Peter Dutton’s comments on Middle East UN resolution; future of the NDIS; John Howard’s comments on Donald Trump and Aus/US relations.

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: This time last year, the final report of the Royal Commission into Violence, Abuse, Neglect and Exploitation of People with Disability was handed down. 172 of the 222 recommendations were related to the Commonwealth. But just seven weeks ago, the Federal Government confirmed it would accept in full 13 recommendations. Now the government has released its disability reform roadmap. So, what will it achieve? Well, joining us to talk about that and other issues is Bill Shorten, who is the National Disability Insurance Scheme and Government Services Minister, Bill Shorten, welcome back.

BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICESHORTEN: Good morning, Patricia.

KARVELAS: Before we get to your portfolio, just a couple of issues. I'd like to talk to you about. How would you characterize this week for the government? Looked like the government had lost control.

SHORTEN: No, I think we have a government who is determined to support people get into housing. And what we saw is an unholy alliance between the Greens political party and their new right-wing allies, the Liberal Party of Australia. People don't have to agree in parliament, but the problem here is that on this matter, where we're trying to make it easier for low- and middle-income people to get their first home, we saw the Greens and the Liberals basically chucking the dream of first home ownership on the bonfire of political expediency.

KARVELAS: This was a small program that would have only helped 40,000 people. Now, I'm not saying 40,000 is nothing because it is significant for those people, but the argument from the Greens leader is that it's like throwing a bucket of water on a raging fire. Isn't that right?

SHORTEN: No, the Greens - listen, the greens are a formidable and destructive political part of Australian life. When we say that helping 40,000 people get into their first time is not a worthwhile goal, then I just realise that they live in a parallel universe.

KARVELAS: I want to explore that with you. You've just described them, and I wrote it down because I do that sort of thing. “Formidable and destructive part of Australian political life”. That's a pretty strong comment. Is that just because they're competitors to you and they're taking, well, they've started encroaching on seats in the lower house. Is it just that they're political rivals?

SHORTEN: No. What the Greens are doing increasingly is, they're playing in a different competition to Labor and the Liberals. Labor and the Liberals, whatever you think of us or the Liberals, we seek to form governments in Australia. And when you form a government, that means you've actually got to get things done. The Greens are playing in the sort of competition where they’re the party of protest, they're an outrage factory. So, they can be all things to all people because they'll never have to implement their policies. So, they play by a different set of rules. And what they do is they create anxiety. They've created anxiety for people who might want to buy their first home. They create anxiety for our NDIS reforms. You know, they were saying some of the most absurd and unevidenced-based comments possible about our reforms. They create anxiety in Jewish Australians, like the Greens create anxiety. They're not chasing the votes of eight out of 85 out of every 100 Australians, they'd like to move from getting the votes of ten out of every 100 Australians to perhaps 14 out of every 100 Australians. So, the real problem they have is that they think that they're morally superior to people who disagree with them. And I found in political life that because someone disagrees with you, doesn't make them morally inferior. They just have a different proposition or a set of values.

KARVELAS: Do you prefer the politics of Peter Dutton to Adam Bandt?

SHORTEN: No, what I'm talking about here is not even the political positions that are adopted. It's about the destination of these positions. The Greens aren't interested in running the country. They're just interested in chipping some votes so they can be a -

KARVELAS: I think they'd love to run the country, actually.

SHORTEN: But the problem is that if they ran the country, they'd do it with 15 out of every 100 votes. And I think in their souls they don't really - if you disagree with the Greens, they just think you're dumb or you're mean or you're not as enlightened as them. I've never taken the view that if someone has a different political view to me, that makes them a less worthy person.

KARVELAS: Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. So going into this election fight, it seems to me that Labor's really ramped up the rhetoric around the Greens. Obviously, the Greens, it's fair to say, have outperformed the government, at least in the messaging on housing, right?

SHORTEN: I don't know about that either. The reality is, I think most Australians see through the Greens, but Australians want action. The reality is that we have cost of living pressures, which are absolutely real. With the Reserve Bank increasing interest rates 13 times, what you've got is mortgage holders under pressure. Uh, what you've got is renters under pressure. And it is a challenge. And that is why we're trying to increase through various mechanisms the amount of supply of housing in this country.

KARVELAS: Now, you have not been holding back in the past about your comments around the RBA. The Fed has cut rates by half a percentage point. Should the RBA be looking to do the same?

SHORTEN: Well, the Fed is different to the RBA. when you say I've been holding back, my view is that the RBA is independent but that doesn't mean that they're immune to getting advice from other people or hearing different points of view. They should just be able to be in a position where they're able to make their own decisions. I think it is significant that the Fed has decided to lower interest rates in America by half a per cent, but our economies are not identical. So how long that takes to flow through and the impact that has, well, it remains to be seen. I noticed that our dollar rallied on the basis that the fed was cutting rates. And of course, with a rallying dollar, it means that we're able to buy more, it takes some pressure and inflationary pressure off us.

KARVELAS: Another sort of adjacent story to all of this is Australia's migrant intake that will exceed 400,000 in the last financial year. That really blows out the government's chances of meeting its target in reducing migration. Do you see that as a big problem, given the squeeze on housing and the fact that Australians are identifying it as an issue?

SHORTEN: Well, I think that what we're seeing is that the last financial year is still lower than where we've been. I mean, I guess our challenge is in Australia that people come here, and they like it here and they don't want to go. I mean, sometimes when you're a successful nation, I guess there's a price to pay for that, that other people have worked out this is a good place to live. I think we're getting our measures in place in terms of, um, our visas, but we do have a challenge. It's not so much the number of people coming here. I think that's been on projection. It's just the rate at which they're leaving is not as great as we would have otherwise expected.

KARVELAS: Look, there's also a lot of discussion about what's happening, of course, in the Middle East. Opposition Leader Peter Dutton has claimed the government is, and I'm quoting, damaging our relationship very significantly with the US and Israel, after Australia decided to abstain from a UN motion calling for a withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank. What do you say to that?

SHORTEN: I get that Peter Dutton's job is to just oppose things that the government are doing. But I think the fact that we're pressing for a ceasefire, that we want increased humanitarian access, that we want the release of hostages, which we've been very consistent on, and that we want to prevent regional escalation, is the right way to go. And we're calling on the parties there to agree to a comprehensive ceasefire, which has actually been brokered by the US, Qatar, and Egypt. It's been endorsed by the Security Council. So, I think our - you know, in opposition, it's a lot easier just to throw rocks. But when you're in government, you've got to take into account all the perspectives and the long-term interest. And I think that the fact that we're supporting a comprehensive ceasefire deal is actually where mainstream Australia is. We don't want to see these arguments flowing here. I feel very strongly about that. We don't want people here to feel unsafe. But the best way to have that is a comprehensive ceasefire.

KARVELAS: I want to move to the NDIS. The population this week officially surpassed 27 million people. What does that mean for the NDIS? How much will demand for the service grow?

SHORTEN: We're projecting that the end of the financial year 2025, so we've only just started, we think there'll be over 700,000 people on the Scheme. We're projecting that there'll be growth in the number of people on the Scheme, but not as great as it has been. The last year - I mean, the Scheme is changing lives. It's an investment in people. We're straightening up a lot of the accountabilities within the personal budget system, and we're going after the scammers and the rorters in a way that they've not experienced since the start of the Scheme - with the very last year before I became the Minister, the number of people coming onto the Scheme increased by 15%. That's not a realistic growth, that's just too many. We need to build up other services outside the Scheme so it's not the only lifeboat in the ocean. But this financial year, the year just finished in June, the number of people coming on the Scheme has fallen to about a growth of 8%. So, I think we're getting the Scheme under control, we're making it sustainable but what we need to do is focus on, for all the money we invest, that we're getting quality outcomes for participants.

KARVELAS: You came on the show earlier this year to discuss how a re-tweaked NDIS would make it more sustainable. How does the government's disability reform roadmap achieve that?

SHORTEN: Well, what we did is we've released a map of where we think we'll be on a number of key issues in disability. And so, what the roadmap does is it provides everyone who's interested in where we're going some direction, and our sort of proposed timetable, that the roadmap is worked out in conjunction with the states. It'll be updated to capture new decisions, new facts. But there was a Disability Royal Commission where the response is being headed by my very capable colleague Amanda Rishworth. We're going to do an update on that by December of this year, and we're going to do progress reports each six months for next year. There was a big review into the NDIS. That's my direct area. We'll be giving a formal response to all of the 26 recommendations. We've sent out, we're sending out dispositions on what to do on them to the States. We've got to respect the states as co-governors. They've got to take it through their cabinets. We'll be outlining the timetable of implementing the various things that we passed in our new laws a few weeks ago. And one of the big things, without trying to kill everyone's interest in this with jargon, is we want to create foundational supports. That's specific supports for people with disability who mightn't be eligible for the NDIS but still need some support. And we're outlining when we start implementing that. So, it's a set of information about hopeful timetables, where we're going, the role of co-design, the role of the states. There's a lot of things going on and trying to get it into one sort of simple to read document is the challenge.

KARVELAS: Your government listed recommendations to phase out segregated employment by 2034, and group homes within 15 years as needing further consideration. So, how are you progressing on that? Which is obviously something that I know many people in the disability community are very passionate about.

SHORTEN: Yeah, it's an important issue. We want to - one of the big things which the National Disability Insurance Scheme invests in is called supported independent living packages. They're a big part of the Scheme in terms of the investment outlay. We want to make sure that's working well. This is the chance for people to live independently, to have innovative accommodation solutions. We are probably outlaying well north of $8 billion a year trying to get this right. It is changing people's lives. People who would have once been consigned to group homes and families wouldn't have known, you know, sort of what their options were, there's now a whole package of support, but you've got to make sure that it's delivering outcomes. And it's not sort of just repeating the problem in a new form of group homes.

KARVELAS: So have you settled -

SHORTEN: There's a lot of investment and attention on that.

KARVELAS: Have you settled then on worth, you know, worth exploring, but do you think it needs to be done?

SHORTEN: I think we're capable of providing independence and innovation in the accommodation options for people with profound and severe disabilities, which will ultimately make the need for sort of group homes, that’s a whole lot of people are living in one property, or one property are not so necessary, but it's going to take a lot of work to get that right. See, a lot of the housing we use is sort of what you call loosely legacy housing. The states might have built it in the 50s and 60s, and they passed that over to the NDIS as accommodation. Sometimes we're fitting people around old houses, rather than working out what new tech could mean for innovation and independence for people. It's complex. It is a complex task, and it's going to be a multiple election cycle task. But we are now, as a nation, investing the money in it, which wasn't always the case.

KARVELAS: Bill Shorten, before I let you go, former Liberal Prime Minister John Howard has taken aim at Donald Trump, saying he's not compatible with democracy. What do you think?

SHORTEN: I think Mr. Howard is entitled to his opinion. I think it's a pretty interesting development. I think his party should listen carefully to what he says. Australia needs a strong America. I mean, love them or hate them, really, Since World War two, America has provided support for Australian defence policy. I know some people hate that, but the reality is they have been a very valuable ally. What we need is, whether or not it's a Republican administration or a Democratic administration, what we really need is a no surprises doctrine. You know, that's the way the alliance works. Predictability.

KARVELAS: But is he, is he incompatible with democracy?

SHORTEN: Listen, I serve currently in a government. We'll work with whoever America produces in their electoral processes.

KARVELAS: But Bill Shorten, who's going to be a vice chancellor soon, what do you think?

SHORTEN: I'll get back to you on the 1st of February, you know, or sometime in February on that one. But I do think that, um, the January 6th riots were shocking. I do think it's a matter of record that more could have been done by the outgoing president. But, you know, John Howard has got the freedom of not being in politics. And I have the privilege of serving in a Cabinet.

KARVELAS: All right. February the 1st, the executive producer has already put it in the diary. Thanks so much for joining us.

SHORTEN: Let me get my feet under my new desk first.

KARVELAS: February 1st. Bill Shorten, thank you.

SHORTEN: Cheers.