E&OE TRANSCRIPT

SUBJECTS: Bill’s resignation from politics; reflections on public life

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Federal Labor Minister and former Opposition Leader Bill Shorten is retiring from politics after 17 years in parliament. He led Labor for six years until the 2019 election, hoping to become Prime Minister, but stood down from that role after losing his second election. Today, Bill Shorten is the Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme and he joins us now. Bill Shorten, welcome back to Breakfast.

BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FO RTHE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Lovely to be back, PK.

KARVELAS: Okay, let's have some fun. Agree?

SHORTEN: Okay, sure. I don't know if we have the same definition of fun, but I'm willing to experiment.

KARVELAS: Yeah, you're always willing to experiment. So, let's go with this one.

SHORTEN: All right.

KARVELAS: How does it land on you to be described as the best Prime Minister Labor never had.

SHORTEN: Great. I love the title. I mean, there's one title which would have been better, Prime Minister. But if you've got to have another title, that's nice.

KARVELAS: I need you to be clear with me. Were a few diplomatic posts dangled in front of you.

SHORTEN: We'll never know. I -

KARVELAS: No, we will know if you answer.

SHORTEN: Yeah, well, that's why we say we'll never know. I guess the point for me is, I. I know how lucky I've been to serve in Parliament, and I love the northwestern suburbs. I just, you know, today’s - it's good that I said that I'm not going to stand again and that I've thought about what I do next. And that's, you know, that's consistent with my values. But I'm getting a lot of texts from would you believe some of the voters in my electorate don't want me to go? And that's nice too. And so, I've got to just work that through. I've got another five months to work in my portfolio. You know, I'm pretty positive, I'm very positive, but I also appreciate some of the lovely comments I'm getting. I'm actually, to be honest, I'm embarrassed. The other group who have been reaching out a lot of the disability community. You know, I know that some of the same people are saying, don't do this legislation are now saying, oh, don't go. So, I guess that's the sort of funny thing about Aussies. Yeah, so I'm pleased, but I'm also incredibly grateful. And I don't want to waste a minute of the next five months. I've got stuff to do and people to work with.

KARVELAS: All right. Why Canberra over Paris?

SHORTEN: Well, I guess that's another way of you asking, was I going to go to Paris? I think higher education is an area or a field which a lot of Australians don't know what it does, but I think it's incredibly important. The metaphor I would use is I think our universities and our researchers, our teachers, are like a big, silent river flowing through, you know, the geography of Australia, the human geography of Australia. And they're nourishing all the time. But I'm not sure that everyone's quite aware of what they do. Canberra University had a vacancy for Vice Chancellor. That's a chance for me to use my leadership lessons that people in Australia have taught me over three plus decades. It's a chance to - I like helping individuals, I don't want to sort of be a desk jockey. And so, you know, the chance to work around thousands and thousands of students, young people, people doing inquiry, research for impact, I just want to make Australia a better country. And at the end of the day, we've got mineral wealth. That's great. But the best resource we've got are people. And I've always believed in, everyone deserves a fair go. So, education is the best path from disadvantage to advantage.

KARVELAS: A lot has been said lately and I'm putting my hand up. I've been saying it too, about the way you've been communicating, right? You've really got cut through. And I'm not saying you didn't have any cut through when you were the Opposition Leader, but you did speak in a different way. What can - can you just reflect on that shift? Is it because you're so tightly managed as an Opposition Leader or a leader, full stop that you just can't be your full self?

SHORTEN: Well, first of all, I think sometimes when I was Opposition Leader, we did cut through. We smashed on the beaches the terrible austerity budget of Joe Hockey and Tony Abbott in 2014. We did support marriage equality strongly. We did call for a Banking Royal Commission, which eventually the Coalition gave in on. We did save Erina, so I wouldn't say the time as Opposition Leader was not working. I suppose, though, the point you're going to is I think as we got towards 2019 and expectations rose, we probably, I probably was more tightly managed. Early on, I made plenty of gaffes too in Parliament. So, I suppose the takeaway I would say is, be yourself. You know, at Beaconsfield, I was myself. I probably in politics at some point. I sort of tightened up. Didn't want to say the wrong thing, didn't want to, you know, step on any toes

KARVELAS: And what's the lesson from that? This is what I'm trying to get at, right? In terms of leaders.

SHORTEN: Back yourself. If there are attributes which got you to somewhere, then try and retain some of that. That doesn't mean don't listen. That doesn't mean be arrogant. That doesn't mean don't temper your policy aspirations when you hear good evidence from other points of view. But back yourself. The other thing I've, you know, realised and it's a learning process and my critics could well say I'm a very slow learner. But I've reached a point where I just say what you think and if you don't believe something, shut up. Don't fake it.

KARVELAS: It's great advice. What is the gaffe that haunts you?

SHORTEN: Um, well, I'm going to go back to the - oh, I've made many gaffes.

KARVELAS: Your standout gaffe, Bill Shorten.

SHORTEN: Oh, well, there's - I know yesterday I said that regrets. I had a few, but then too few to mention because I'm channelling the old Sinatra, but, you know, never eat a sausage sandwich at an election barbecue polling booth from the middle. That's one gaffe. Um -

KARVELAS: You didn’t eat an onion.

SHORTEN: Never dance in Polynesia, with the wife of the President. And you've just got to have moves. And I don't have moves. So, there's plenty of - also never chew your upper lip in Parliament, because that will be the moment that the parliamentary photographer photographs you. Never - the other thing which some of the people, some of the camos or photographers in Canberra have told me is they used to have a saying, uh, that Bill's gone the full Wi-Fi. What that means is, I think with my face sometimes. And - I mean, some people would say, I never think, but actually I do. And when I think of my face, my forehead crinkles.

KARVELAS: That’s normal!

SHORTEN: And they just say, that looks like I'm doing that Wi-Fi symbol.

KARVELAS: Ha! That's really funny. You didn't mention lettuce?

SHORTEN: No listen, on the lettuce one, I'm going to fight back, this is the time. I'm going to stand my ground. Do you know, there's 70 plus different types of lettuce. And this was the first day I'd come back - in 2016, I was mocked for holding up a lettuce and saying, don't let Malcolm Turnbull put increase the GST. And, as the old saying goes, at first, they laugh at you and, you know, and I do the shopping in the family. I just happen to know there's different types of lettuce. Clearly the journalists weren't interested in different types of lettuce. I was boring, but what was cute is that within two weeks, Malcolm and Scotty dropped the consumption tax increase they were pushing because I turned up at supermarkets every day.

KARVELAS: You did.

SHORTEN: In regional electorates, and they panicked. And the point they panicked on, that made me realise this was a government who wouldn't fight for very much.

KARVELAS: Bill Shorten. Do you think some of the ideas that you took to the 2019 election, especially specifically negative gearing, were ahead of their time?

SHORTEN: I certainly think my EV policy was ahead of its time. Remember -

KARVELAS: That’s not the one I asked about.

SHORTEN: No, no, but I'll come to your point, but I'll just make the point. Let's never forget that the person who won the election ran around and said, if we have more electric vehicles and charging stations, the weekend is going to die. You're going to lose the weekend. I just want to remind people that Scott Morrison did say some remarkably uninsightful things. But anyway, he's moved on. I have, almost. On the tax policies. I have a general conviction that income is taxed too highly in Australia, and property is taxed much more preferentially. What generates productivity in Australia are the people earning income as opposed to passive investments. Having said that, the verdict came in from the people. 49% of people accepted our policies, 51% didn't. I think Anthony and Jim, with their changes they made to Mr. Morrison's tax cuts for the rich and sharing it with all 13.6 million people, was a masterstroke, especially in a cost-of-living crisis. So, I accept that future governments will work the best path for housing supply. I think what we're doing with building more houses is the sweet spot. So yeah, I -

KARVELAS: No, yeah, but let's go to that. You still, though, believe –

SHORTEN: My policies were the policies of time -

KARVELAS: Yeah.

SHORTEN: And the specific policies were a policy at the time, Labor moved on from them, they were rejected by the people

KARVELAS: They were.

SHORTEN: I have a general - but there's another point really, in all of this, isn't it? Did I take too many policies to the election? Was I too bold? The critics would say yes. Maybe there's one policy too many in the knapsack. But I was also brought up with a view of politics that you tell the people what you're going to do. And also, I think Australians want to know what the vision for the future is. Now I accept that I was an imperfect communicator of that vision. I take the verdict; I accept that I made mistakes. I accept there was some also external factors. I'm at peace with that. And what's really nice is in 2022, Anthony closed the deal. Between 2013 and 2019. I won us back 15 seats. Anthony closed the deal. Now we're actually doing some of the things which we talked about earlier.

KARVELAS: Okay, closed the deal. Let's talk about the deal. Do you still believe that income is taxed too highly, and that property is, you know, that we basically give these tax breaks in an unfair way? I'm saying philosophically, not as a member of the Cabinet.

SHORTEN: No, I'm not saying in an unfair way. That's the – No, I'm saying that you just want to have a just a point of view in Australia. If you have a lot of property, your tax regimes are preferential. If you earn income, you pay direct rates of tax.

KARVELAS: And people are cranky about this.

SHORTEN: I'm not going to solve this issue in the next five months. My job is to make sure that the NDIS changes -

KARVELAS: No, but you're about to become a public intellectual as well. What are your views?

SHORTEN: Intellectual? Oh my God.

KARVELAS: I did that, I know. Did you like that?

SHORTEN: I think the university may have a lot of intellectuals. I'll just get to work with them.

KARVELAS: Fair enough. Do you think, though broadly, I'm not you're not announcing a new policy, but that these things, that there is an intergenerational unfairness that people are upset about.

SHORTEN: Leaving aside tax policies, we do have a challenge in Australia about inequity between generations. But I have to say the inequity is not because someone's old or someone's young. It's just never been so important to have rich parents. So, what we really have is a wealth inequity. And what we have with our young people is they've got to pay the GST; they pay their marginal rates of tax. We've got to deal with the delayed issues of climate change, but this government is doing the right thing. I mean, we have intergenerational inequity and thank goodness Jim and Anthony gave tax cuts back to people who earn less than $140,000, which is where most of our under 30s are. Thank goodness we're finally getting on with renewable energy and not kicking the can down the road. We've also seen wage rates move for low paid workers, many of whom are young people. We've seen equity wages, gender equity wages, move. Many childcare or early childhood educators are young. So, I think we are - and the other thing is we're also helping defray some student debt. So, I think we're tackling the generational equity. But it's a real problem.

KARVELAS: I've got some quick ones if we can just do them. Because I want to pick your brain on so many things.

SHORTEN: Does that mean you've got quick questions, or you want quick answers?

KARVELAS: I want quick answers. My questions might be verbose.

SHORTEN: All right. Just decoding.

KARVELAS: I'll be honest with you. International student caps. You're about to be a vice chancellor. Are you about to change your mind as February hits on that issue?

SHORTEN: I'm a member of the government, and I am very supportive of what the government's trying to do. When I'm in my new job, let's talk about my new job. But at the moment I'm very lucky to help work and improve government services and NDIS and I just want to reassure those punters that's the game for me for the next five months and I will use every second.

KARVELAS: Okay. On another issue, who are you going to back for your seat? Do you see it as an AWU seat?

SHORTEN: It's not up to me. One thing you learn is that when you're moving out of one area into another, don't try and control the world you're leaving? I hope it's a local, but, you know, there’s a lot of good people.

KARVELAS: And do you hope it is - is there anyone that you can name? Help me out here.

SHORTEN: Out here. I'm not going to buy into it, I don't know. But one thing I learnt when I left the AWU is don't interfere once you're going. And I also, as a general rule, you know, the Labor Party will pick someone, and I hope they pick someone good.

KARVELAS: But is it an AWU seat?

SHORTEN: It's a seat which belongs to the voters of Maribyrnong. No party has an automatic call on it. No faction has an automatic call on it. What we've got to do is convince the voters to vote for the Labor candidate.

KARVELAS: Another question I'd like to ask you. The union movement looks like it's being torn apart at the moment. Disaffiliation of one union, are the blue-collar workers going to turn on Labor at the next election?

SHORTEN: Unions have had arguments in the past. I mean, the ACTU was formed in 1927. Periodically there have been different unions in and out of the ACTU. So as long as unions are focusing on their members, that's all that matters. Personality conflicts, political conflicts, that's part and parcel of everyone. Football clubs, the Liberal party. How are those Victorian Libs going? I mean, they're suing each other. So, you do get internal conflicts, but so long as the union movement keeps doing what it's best at -

KARVELAS: Some of them might vote for the Greens. What do you say to them?

SHORTEN: Well, I said the Greens are a sort of a Lexus vote. What do you mean by that? Is you vote Green when you don't have a problem in the world. Because if you've got problems, the Greens aren't going to fix them. They're just going to be the outrage factory.

KARVELAS: Bill Shorten, I hope to speak to you many times before February and then many times when you're Vice Chancellor. I've just locked in lots of interviews. Thank you for always being accessible. And, you know, I've known you for a long time. It's quite a legacy and congratulations for it.

SHORTEN: Yeah, I'm looking forward to finishing my second career and starting my third. And I just want to say to listeners, thank you. Being a Member of Parliament is a privilege. Doesn't matter how crap the day is, I wouldn't hand a single day back. And I also want to thank my family and my neighbours and my voters locally.

KARVELAS: Yeah, see you around the streets of Moonee Ponds. Thank you very much.

SHORTEN: Hasta la vista.