E&OE TRANSCRIPT
SUBJECTS: Middle East conflict; Unemployment rate
SARAH ABO, HOST: Well, the Opposition Leader has ignited a political fire in parliament this week, being blasted as a racist after his divisive call on a blanket ban on Gaza visas. And this morning the Coalition is pushing for a full review of visa rules. For more, we're joined by the Opposition Leader, Peter Dutton in Canberra, and NDIS and Government Services Minister Bill Shorten in Melbourne. Good morning to you both. Pete, you've been accused of having no heart. Has anything changed overnight?
PETER DUTTON, LIBERAL PARTY: I just think if you've got no substance to your argument, you throw at those sort of lines, Sarah, what we're talking about here is the national security issue. It's a very important issue for our country because the Government's made a dramatic change here. They've said that they're going to allow people who have sympathy to a terrorist organisation, a listed terrorist organisation, to come into our country. They've allowed 1300 people into our country on a tourist visa. No other country in the world has done that. Not even countries in the Middle east are joining countries. Jordan, Egypt, not the United States, not the United Kingdom, not France. Nobody has done this. And I think the Prime Minister has clearly had a political motivation here. He sees political dividend in bringing people in from a war zone controlled by a listed terrorist organisation at the moment and I think it deserves to be called out. And if I mean the nonsense and the rhetoric you've heard from the hard left zealots like Zali Stegall, who are just hard greens, it's just nonsense. They've got no substance to their argument. And I don't think the vast majority of Australians believe that the Albanese Government's got their migration programme under control.
ABO: I mean, some might accuse you of political point scoring yourself. Are you not unnecessarily escalating tensions here? You know that there are people in Gaza who already hold visas and as you know, this is a war zone. It's near impossible for Palestinians to even get out of Gaza right now.
DUTTON: But again, Sarah, no other country in the world has done this -
ABO: - not, they're not able to even get out.
DUTTON: - not Germany, not Jordan. But 1300 people are here and 3000 have visas and the government hasn't even done face to face interviews. They brought people in on tourist visas. Like, if you're coming from New Zealand or from the UK, it's without precedent. And it's another decision of Andrew Giles, who since has been sacked. But we know that. I mean, this is a guy who released 152 criminals from immigration detention when he didn't need to do so.
ABO: You're right, there are some of the numbers already here. But I just want to. I mean, the visas, obviously, some have been granted. There are many thousands rejected. 7000. Is that not a sign of the system working?
DUTTON: Sarah, they've brought people in without doing interviews, from a war zone that's controlled by Hamas, a listed terrorist organisation in our country. And it's the case on the ground that by all of the polling, there are four or five different companies who are doing polling there. Between 40 and 70% of people have a sympathy for this listed terrorist organisations. So, I just think we need to be very careful. We're a generous country and we're a great country because of migration, but you need to manage our migration programme, well, and it's not just this. The country's under huge pressure, pressure at the moment in the housing industry, because the Prime Minister's brought a million people in over two years and we've only built 250,000 homes. He's created a housing crisis in our country by not managing the migration programme well. So, every element of the migration programme just is not working in our country's best interests at the moment.
ABO: I think they're two separate issues. Now. We're talking about the issue at the moment with Palestinians. Bill, is the Government conducting face to face interviews?
DUTTON: You know, of course, but it's part of. It's part of the migration programme that the government's presiding over -
ABO: - I just want to ask, Bill, if -
DUTTON: - which normally happens, they lose control of our border borders in different ways.
ABO: We will come to that. But just, Bill, if I could ask you whether the Government is actually conducting these face to face interviews, and if you're not, is Australia's national security then at risk?
BILL SHORTEN, MINISTER FOR THE NDIS AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES: Hang on, Sarah. Pete's had about a three minute gallop around the paddock there. There's a whole heap of stuff that's got to be addressed and if I don't address it, it just, it just distorts the debate. I think you've gone to the heart of the issue.1300 people are here from this war torn zone. 7100 have been rejected. The Government is following procedures. No one, doesn't matter where you're from, gets to this country without being checked against a movement watch list and being vetted. If Peter thinks that one of the 1300 people here is a security risk, he should come forward with his evidence. Don't sit on information you know, it's ok to use the sort of spooky music and say, imply that all Gazans are terrorists, which is what you're effectively doing. I'm sure there are plenty of people in Gaza who are Hamas supporters and Hamas is terrible, but please don't tell me, I'm a middle of the road sort of person, please don't insult the intelligence of Aussies and say that everyone from that area is a bad person. We've rejected 7100 of them –
DUTTON: – nobody is saying that, Bill. Nobody is saying that –
SHORTEN: – we've got 1300. We're doing the procedures which –
DUTTON: – a ridiculous assertion.
ABO: Pete you are saying that by saying –
[crosstalk]
SHORTEN: – you call that a ridiculous assertion? You are saying that.
ABO: Do you think, Bill –
DUTTON: Of course I'm not, Bill. And again, let’s have an intellectual debate about it. No other country in the world has bought 1300. No other country in the world in their right mind would not do face to face interviews with people who are coming out of a war zone. When we took 12,000 people out of Syria, we did biometrics tests and we took months. I was criticised at the twelve month mark for not having issued all the visas. We did the biometrics test and we checked against the intelligence database holdings to make sure we weren't bringing anyone here. The fact is that you and the Prime Minister cannot look the Australian public in the eye and verify the authenticity of the applications that have been made. Maybe the vast majority of people coming through the programme are fine, but I don't know. Because you haven't done the checks. That's the reality. And the Prime Minister misled the parliament.
SHORTEN: Well, the reality is that they have been checked.
DUTTON: – he was clearly lying –
[crosstalk]
SHORTEN: – if you say that there –
DUTTON: – No –
SHORTEN: – come on. If you want to have a debate, there's two people in it –
[crosstalk]
DUTTON: – which was a disgrace.
SHORTEN: I mean, yeah, if you say that there are no checks, if you say there are no checks being done, why have 7100 been rejected? Right. Dead air.
DUTTON: But you’re approving people in 24 hours –
SHORTEN: And you have been saying, Pete –
DUTTON: – in 24 hours they got a visa. Were they properly checked?
SHORTEN: Well, what about the 7100 who have been rejected? Like, I think that's a proof point. If you genuinely believe that one of these 1300 people is a bad person, don't sit on the evidence, bring it forward, don't sit on evidence just to score points. If you think in your heart of hearts that one of these 1300 people got in when they shouldn't have got in, help the government keep the nation safe, rather than just, you know, run around.
ABO: I mean, look, we could talk about this for much more time. We certainly don't have any more time, but the bottom line is ASIO is doing its job and these policies have been in place since the Coalition Government as well. But let's move on now,
DUTTON: – that is not true, Sarah, that is not true –
ABO: a record number of Australians or searching for a job as the Australian Bureau of Statistics.
[crosstalk]
ABO: Go on, Pete.
DUTTON: – I'm sorry, I just want to correct that.
SHORTEN: Sorry, I couldn't hear you, Sarah, over Peter's interruption.
DUTTON: It's not the same. It's not the same settings as we had when we were in Government. I don't. That is. That is not.
SHORTEN: Pete, if you think one of these 1300 is a bad person, put up or shut up.
[crosstalk]
ABO: We are running out of time.
[crosstalk]
DUTTON: Let's be honest about it.
ABO: Yeah, we're trying to get to the bottom of it, anyway.
SHORTEN: Put up or shut up, mate. If one of the 1300 is a bad person. Tell us, please, we'll take action.
ABO: Let's move on, if you don't mind.
DUTTON: You wouldn’t know, Bill.
ABO: A record number of Australians are in work. Let's focus on what's happening at home at the moment searching for a job as the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows an increase in the unemployment rate bill. Unemployment has jumped by 58,000, but it seems more. While Australians are working more, they're actually earning less. So, what does that all mean?
SHORTEN: Well, what it means is that as a Government, we have been in charge at a time of the creation of more jobs in a record period of time than any government before us. So, that's good news. It's always difficult if people can't find work, but more people, more jobs are being created in the first two years of the Albanese Government than in the first two years of any new government in Australia in terms of wages. It is a battle. It is a battle. But what I also know is that under our policies, the early childhood educators are going to get a pay rise. So, that's 200,000 hard working people who are low paid, 95% of them are women, going to get a pay rise and a good one. We're also seeing that all these people who go to work every day and make this country the best country in the world, are getting decent tax cuts from the 1 July.
ABO: Yeah, I mean, look, obviously the cost of living badly, which is good news, is still an issue. But, Pete, this is, these numbers are in line with the Reserve Bank expectations, which means that a rate hike is hopefully unlikely?
DUTTON: I hope that's the case, Sarah. I really hope that interest rates can come down soon because there are a lot of families at the moment just who can't, you know, pay their bills and they're struggling not just with their mortgage repayments, but, you know, their grocery bill has gone through the roof, your electricity bill and your gas bill's gone through the roof. The government promised it was going to come down by $275 and it's gone up by $1,000. So, I just think people are really under the pump at the moment. And the government's had decisions that they've made which could have made it easier for families, but they put pressure on the Reserve bank to put rates up. And when you've got the UK, Canada, New Zealand, reducing interest rates, at the moment, Australia's talking about increasing interest rates under this G, and that's a disaster for families and small businesses.
ABO: All right. We have run out of time.
SHORTEN: One number back at Pete. Inflation was 6%, now it’s at 3.8 –
ABO: Unfortunately, Pete, Bill, we both do have to go. Thank you so much for your time today. Appreciate it.
