E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
ABC INSIDERS
SUNDAY, 16 AUGUST 2020



SUBJECTS: National aged care and disability response, Ruby Princess report, Daniel Andrews, hotel quarantine, JobKeeper & JobSeeker, Gas, Hekmattullah, Morrison simping to Trump

DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Time to talk to Bill Shorten, to take us there here was the Prime Minister on this idea from the Royal Commissioner of a new national pandemic coordinating body specifically focused on aged care.

SCOTT MORRISON VIDEO PACKAGE: The matters that were raised that needed to be addressed very much mirror the actions that the government has indeed been taking. And I know that there are proponents of particular methods and particular ways of doing things or particular groups that should be established. What matters to me is simply the action and the action that is being taken is very consistent, I believe, with what was set out yesterday as a proposal.

SPEERS: Bill Shorten, welcome to the program.

BILL SHORTEN, MEMBER FOR MARIBYRNONG: Good morning.

SPEERS: So let's start with the immediate question. Is enough being done right now to protect aged care residents?

SHORTEN: No. I had a neighbour who lived two doors down and went into St. Basil's home and his family couldn't find out for five days what happened to Theo. But these five days were the days that the Commonwealth was running St Basils, it wasn't before then. Then we got the phone call that no one wanted to get that he had passed on that fifth day, the Saturday night after we'd been hitting the phones. But the Commonwealth still rang Theo's family on Sunday and said he's doing fine. So there is a major problem. And I just want to give a shout out, though, to all the aged care workforce. There are a lot of places getting it right, David. And aged care, I think, is a disaster.

SPEERS: So what needs to happen then right now?

SHORTEN: Well, first of all, as my colleague Julie Collins has said, we should be pursuing the Royal Commissioner's suggestion of a national pandemic aged care coordinating authority. The government set up a response unit in Victoria, which is good as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough.

SPEERS: What would the difference be, because what we just heard the PM saying what they're doing with these state based response centres is adequate. Can you explain what difference would a national body make?

SHORTEN: Well, first of all, clearly the left hand doesn't talk to the right hand in government bureaucracy. I mean, we've got staff who need PPE training, personal protective equipment training. We also need to make sure that personal protective equipment is provided. And also, I was listening to what your panellists were saying beforehand, the reality is that the government introduced a retention bonus, but it's not going to all of the people working in aged care. So what that means is we've set up an industry for 20 years, ever since Howard helped privatise it, and in order for the low paid casual workforce to make enough money, they've got to work in multiple centres. They're not getting the support. So a coordinating authority, I think, deals with all of the issues.

SPEERS: Can’t though, just to be clear on this point, can’t state based response centres deal with those issues? Are you saying they’re unable to?

SHORTEN: It would be good if they can. But if you set up a Royal Commission and the Royal Commissioner makes a direct intervention, why are we second guessing it? Why do we leave old people, elderly people and vulnerable people, with a second class system? The people in the system are working hard, but this has been the dirty secret of Australian politics. And COVID-19’s just revealed it.

SPEERS: Well, what does it what does it reveal? What's the bigger picture here, Bill Shorten? You refer to the privatisation of the sector. What are you suggesting?

SHORTEN: How on earth can you ensure that - how can you serve two masters? How do you serve the master of profit, making a profit, and care? And this is the problem. Looking after elderly people with a diagnosis of dementia is not cheap. So if we want to make a profit and you want to look after people, then you create fault lines in the system. COVID-19, right across Australian societies, revealed things which have been glossed over. But if you're a worker in this system, and there are great people working in this system, they're doing the hard and the tough work. They have to work at multiple centres just to make a living.

SPEERS: So are you saying there should be no profit making in aged care?

SHORTEN: I'm saying that we need to put people before profit. I'm saying that if you can make a profit, that's good. But the problem here is that we're seeing profit being made, but people not getting looked after.

SPEERS: When you just said you can't serve two masters -

SHORTEN: You've got to make a choice in a beauty parade. You've got to make a choice who you want. And I want us to look after our elderly Australians.

SPEERS: But you're not, you know, no place for profit.

SHORTEN: No, but I am saying that what we see is the system relies on the workforce who get paid crap, who have to work at multiple centres, who are casuals. And we expect them basically to do what governments are not prepared to do, which is take up the load.

SPEERS: What's the answer to that? I mean, we've got a huge number of unemployed now. We've got a demand for care workers, not just in aged care, but disability care, and we'll get to that, in child care and so on. What's the answer here? How can government fix both problems?

SHORTEN: Well, I think from every crisis, there's an opportunity. We're still in Stage 4, so talking about opportunity in Melbourne sort of seems a bit like waiting for a sunny day, but we've got the opportunity to pay people properly. Train people properly. Put more money into aged care. Don't rely on a casualised workforce who, whilst they do the work of angels, are effectively treated like fruit pickers. We’ve got to stand up and say that if we care about our parents and our grandparents, which we do, and most Australians would agree with that, you can't do that on the cheap.

SPEERS: Let's talk about disability care. There are some growing concerns about the numbers that we're seeing there in terms of the virus and a lot of similar issues when it comes to casual workers, the need for training and access to personal protective equipment, masks and so on. There are 89 active cases now in Victorian residential disability accommodation, 67 of them are staff, 22 residents. I understand the Victorian Government has been requesting these sort of state response centres like we have now with aged care for disability care. Instead, the Commonwealth hasn't agreed to that, but the state has set up its own one. It does have NDIS representation on it. Is that adequate?

SHORTEN: Well, first of all, I'd like the health authorities to report the number of people with disabilities who are actually dying from COVID. The Victorians have got some data, but I think that's a federal responsibility. I don't think it is adequate enough. Did you know, for example, that disability carers often have the same skills as aged carers? The UK showed that two thirds of people who died there had a disability, yet disability carers can't even get a retention bonus. So the very problem that we're identifying as the trigger in aged care, low paid, casualised workforce forced to go to work in multiple centres, that's happening in disability right now. There's 720 group homes and there's a simple solution. Rather than asking a single organisation to either pay, force their workers not to get a lot of money, is we should look at it as a sector wide workforce. So facilities who don't have the disease and the virus can at least tap some of their workforce to help out rather than putting in untrained people.

SPEERS: Hasn't that happened? The Minister, Stuart Robert, did put out a press release this week saying that they've made four large providers, they’ve put them on standby to provide workers to provide accommodation for the smaller.

SHORTEN: Yeah, that is a step in the right direction.

SPEERS: So what needs to happen right now, then, for disability care?

SHORTEN: Well, what I would do is, first of all, I would give disability workers the retention bonus. I'd make sure that we had pandemic leave for them. And I'd also make sure that we think of disability like aged care as a whole sector, and that we use all of the resources rather than asking individual organisations when there's an outbreak to handle it on their own. I mean, when you think about aged care, it isn't just to be expected, and I don't agree with Mr Morrison - do you know we are the second worst in the world now in terms of COVID-19 proportionately and aged care? That is not the country we see in the mirror, we want to see in the mirror. Second worst in the world.

SPEERS: Let me ask a few questions on the economy.

SHORTEN: Sure.

SPEERS: As mentioned, a lot of unemployed, more than a million, as of the jobs figures this week. Do you think the rates of JobKeeper and JobSeeker should still come down in about six weeks?

SHORTEN: Absolutely not. I got an email last night from a lady in Ringwood, Rebecca, who knew I was going on the show today. And her story speaks why we shouldn't be cutting JobSeeker and JobKeeper at the moment. She said she's a mother of four. She she will lose 12 hundred dollars a month as soon as the reduction comes in. I live in Victoria. It's pretty bloody obvious that we should be extending JobKeeper and JobSeeker into the next year. And I also want to give a mention of sole traders and partnerships, who are slipping through the cracks. Small business, you'd think, with Mr Morrison they’re his heartland so he says, they'd be missing out and casuals are still getting a raw deal.

SPEERS: Well, Labor's position, as I understand it, is they should consider maintaining the right of JobKeeper and JobSeeker. You're saying this morning they should be maintained

SHORTEN: Labor will arrive at its position. But as a Victorian, I see the hardship. You know, in the city, in the Block Arcade, beautiful, iconic arcade, seven or eight small businesses probably aren’t even coming back. The problem's real. And if we know that, we're going to have to maintain JobSeeker and JobKeeper and JobKeeper has, on balance, done more good than harm. Let's just get on with it.

SPEERS: Sure, but just in your comment, are you suggesting that Labor's taking a little – is a bit slow to get to that position?

SHORTEN: No. not at all, I think Labor has been ahead of the government on a range of issues, paid pandemic leave, what to do on aged care. And Jim Chalmers has made it very clear, our Shadow Treasury spokesperson, that the modelling on JobKeeper was based on there being one spike. Well, as John Maynard Keynes, the economist, says, as the facts change, so does his opinion.

SPEERS: If you'd won the election last year and you were leading Australia through this crisis, what sort of reforms would you be looking at to get people back into work to grow the economy?

SHORTEN: Well, we didn't win the election and Labor will unveil all its policies in good time before the election. But I think COVID-19’s actually changed the way we do things in Australia. COVID- 19 has shown I think, and there's been plenty of people, plenty of views so this is just early thoughts - when you're locked down, you have time to think. Aged care is a basket case, not for the people in it, but for the lack of support it gets. Childcare. Why are we making childcare workers, for example, not be able to get JobKeeper and create some second system? There's no doubt in my mind it's highlighted inequality. The people who are doing it worse under COVID-19 are the people who rely upon income, who don't have a whole lot of property.

SPEERS: Has it changed your thinking on tax at all?

SHORTEN: I think in I.R, it reinforces some of what I thought, which is that we've relied on 70:30 split in our workforce, 70 per cent permanent 30 per cent casuals. The casuals are the ones copping it in the neck. Probably what it has made me do is realise that sole traders and partnerships don't fit neatly into a whole lot of government programs. And that I think is worth a lot more creative work. The other thing, though, which I'm absolutely even more redoubled in my conviction, is manufacturing. We've run out of items in our supply chain. It's about time that we double down our investment in making things here.

SPEERS: Just on that, some suggest we need to do more on gas to make manufacturing more affordable, even taxpayer subsidies for infrastructure when it comes to gas. What do you think?

SHORTEN: I think that if we want to transition to more renewable energy, we still need baseload energy. And that gas, I think, is part of that answer. You know, I was formerly a union rep. I used to look after workers in manufacturing. You can't have a manufacturing sector from Quenos in Botany and Altona through to foundries, through to the four smelters in aluminium, the steel industry, unless we have low price energy. I think gas does tick some of those boxes.

SPEERS: Couple of quick ones, on the Ruby Princess, Bret Walker found in his report on Friday that the Australian Border Force and for that matter, the Department of Home Affairs, do not bear any responsibility for the Ruby Princess mishap. Do you accept that?

SHORTEN: Well, I haven't read the report, but I've seen the media coverage. It certainly does make it clear that Bret Walker sheets a lot of the responsibility to New South Wales Berejiklian Government health representatives.

SPEERS: Is there any evidence that Border Force did anything wrong here?

SHORTEN: Well, I don't know. And the point is, it would have been good if Mr Morrison had allowed his federal officials to give evidence.

SPEERS: What about in Victoria? As you mentioned, we're here in Stage 4 lockdown at the moment. How would you rate Dan Andrews handling of the virus?

SHORTEN: I think Dan has been doing a pretty good job. And when we've had the problems that we've seen in Victoria of hotel quarantine, say what you like about Dan Andrews, he fronts up every day. He shows what I think a leader should do. He takes the questions, for better or for worse.

SPEERS: Does he answer them though? Are you satisfied with the explanations?

SHORTEN: Well he’s set up the Coate inquiry. I think we'll get to the bottom of it. But I noticed that the government, the federal government, always seems to be out there blaming the states. I brought this book along today. It's called the Constitution. I’d like Mr Morrison to read it. It's sort of like his job description. And if he doesn't want to read the whole lot, Section 51, which I have open, sets out, like his day job and his powers. People might not realise, quarantine is a federal government responsibility. It's at Section 51, sub nine.

SPEERS: Section 51 of the Constitution seeing as you've got it there, it says Parliament shall subject to the Constitution, have the power to make laws for quarantine. It doesn't say it's responsible for managing hotel quarantine, does it?

SHORTEN: Well, if it says quarantine in the Constitution at the very least –

SPEERS: Are you saying the current arrangements are unconstitutional? Where the states are running hotel quarantine?

SHORTEN: I guess I'm saying that, from Shorten QC to Speers QC talking constitutional law, I'm saying that the federal government has some role in quarantine. And I think people just want to see the system run properly, not get into the blame game.

SPEERS: What role are you talking about there, what should the Commonwealth be doing with hotel quarantine?

SHORTEN: The Commonwealth is the big dog of Australian politics. It's the biggest player

SPEERS: So what should it do here?

SHORTEN: I think they should be doing as much as they can working with the states.

SPEERS: But what specifically, should the Commonwealth be doing with hotel quarantine that they're not?

SHORTEN: Well, I think that they should be providing as much knowledge and capacity working with the state government. My point is very simple. Mr Morrison, unlike Dan Andrews, doesn't stick around for the tough questions quite often. And I think when it comes to quarantine, we've heard about Ruby Princess. We've heard about hotel quarantine. The feds have got a job to play here.

SPEERS: Final question. Can I ask you about the Afghan soldier, Hekmatullah, who murdered three Australian soldiers back in 2012. He's now going to be freed apparently, from jail, under a prisoner swap agreement. The prime minister says he has written to President Trump, about this. Is there more Australia should be doing?

SHORTEN: This is a terrible story. Hekmatullah turned his rifle on three Aussie diggers and killed them in cold blood. The Americans have captured him, which is a good thing. This is where I probably think Malcolm Turnbull, even though I disagree with him on a lot certainly, I thought he did a better job standing up to Donald Trump. On this matter, I think that the families of Australian diggers who were murdered in cold blood should know what the government's doing. We all should. I don't think our closest ally militarily should be releasing a Taliban gunman who killed three of ours, just let him go scot free. I think we need to do more and we need to be transparent with what's going on, or fundamentally if I can put in really plain English, Mr Morrison needs to make sure that he doesn't look like he's just a simp to Donald Trump on this very important issue.

SPEERS: Just explain simp?

SHORTEN: Soft.

SPEERS: Bill Shorten, thank you.