E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
ABC NEWS AFTERNOON BRIEFING
THURSDAY, 4 NOVEMBER 2021
 
SUBJECTS: Morrison mismanagement of French submarine deal; outcomes of Glasgow climate conference; Labor’s climate policy; Victorian Liberals fighting over Tim Smith; new report on the negative economic impact of NDIS cuts.
 
PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: An independent think tank report this week found the NDIS contributed 52 billion to the economy in the 2020-21 financial year and cutting funding would cause significant economic pain. Bill Shorten is the Shadow Minister for the NDIS and Government Services, and my guest this afternoon. Bill Shorten, welcome.
 
BILL SHORTEN, MEMBER FOR MARIBYRNONG: Good afternoon, Patricia.
 
KARVELAS: Let's start on this stoush with France that the Prime Minister's been having. The French ambassador has warned other countries their private text messages may be weaponised by the Australian government. The Deputy Prime Minister and Treasurer both say the accusation needed to be refuted. Do you agree? I mean, if you’re called a liar, do you have the right to defend yourself?
 
SHORTEN: Oh, listen, once you're in a fight, you know, every side's got a point of view. We shouldn't have got to this position. I think that's the truth of the matter. Listen, I can understand the French wanted to have a $90 billion contract, and they believe that Mr Morrison's acted in poor faith. For me, the issue is, you know, the French are going to say what the French are going to say. And as far as I'm concerned, a lot of Australians have worked out that Mr Morrison is perpetually one campfire ahead of the posse when it comes to being caught out. But no, I think the big issue here is the security gap which the Liberals have left Australia in. The Liberals love to trumpet that they are the party of defence, that they're the overlords of defence of Australia. But for eight years we had the Abbott frolic with the Japanese submarines, then the Turnbull frolic with the French submarines. Now, Mr Morrison's come up with a new idea, although he was in the cabinet of the previous ideas, for the previous decisions. And in the meantime, we've got thousands of South Australian skilled naval construction workers who are out of the job and uncertain about their future. We've got a security gap, so you know, I get that Mr Morrison has his skills, but it would not appear to be that diplomacy and foreign policy isn’t amongst that skill set, such as he has.
 
KARVELAS: Treasurer Josh Frydenberg says the Government is working on some ideas to rebuild the relationship with France. Where should they start? Given the Prime Minister is unapologetic?
 
SHORTEN: Well, you know, again, maybe they should start by working out what they did wrong and admitting it. I've got no problem with us getting nuclear propulsion technology for our submarines. But I mean, why is it that the Government looks so shocked and stunned that the French are outraged? To me, I want to hear them not explain to France, but explain to Australia, how long are we going have to extend the Collins class submarines for? How much is the deal going to cost? I mean, I accept the technology that we're moving to seems to be the superior technology for submarines. I want them to explain why for eight years, they've taken us up one path and then another path, and then all of a sudden, they've discovered another way to go. In the meantime, our defence is being let down. What this does is not only does it leave Mr Morrison’s sort of people skills reputation in tatters, but I think it leaves their defence credentials in tatters.
 
KARVELAS: The Prime Minister is back from Glasgow. Has Australia gained anything from being there?
 
SHORTEN: Oh, well, I think he had to go, but, you know, he's a bit like a kid who went to show and tell session but had nothing to show or tell. Yeah, so I don't think there's a lot to show for Australia's reputation. But really, we need to move beyond the climate change wars. I just shake my head at the three years we've lost under the current Government, when really, they've appropriated quite a few of the policies we took to the last election. At the last election, you had Mr Morrison running around the bush, saying that electric vehicles, encouraging the take up of electric vehicles by 2030, meant the death of the weekend. You know, here's a sporting bet. We'll see Mr Morrison in a Tesla or an EV soon, whooping it up around the bush in an electric vehicle. I mean, maybe that's what you need to do to become Prime Minister. Show no shame at all. But this bloke seems to think that Australians are about the memories of goldfish, and I don't think they all do. And we've just wasted a lot of time arguing about a scare campaign on climate, when in fact it's the climate change which is the scary phenomena.
 
KARVELAS: Labor has supported the decision not to back a 30 per cent cut to methane emissions this decade. Climate scientists say it is an important step to limit the extent of climate change. Why doesn't Labor support this?
 
SHORTEN: Oh, well Anthony spelled out Labor's policies, I'm not going to start second guessing it. I think you'll find that when Labor unveils its policies that we've got a much more solid basis for real action on climate than the Government. But isn't the problem here that you've got a bloke currently in The Lodge who says that he's a born-again climate conviction politician when he's spent his adult career in parliament bagging taking action on climate change? So, if you if you accept that now the two major parties are saying climate change is important, the question then for voters to ask is who do you trust to take real action on climate? The party who's been consistent, Labor, or the party who has sort of recently arrived at the party and says that they want to do things even though they spent most of their time opposing it?
 
KARVELAS: So, was it a mistake for Labor to dump your ambitious mid-term emissions reduction targets then, given how things are playing out?
 
SHORTEN: Well, the problem is, you can't rewind the clock three years, and in the intervening time, steps which should have been taken haven't been taken, so I accept the prerogative of the new leadership to adjust to the circumstances of the time. But I'd say to ABC viewers who want to see action on climate, do you really think Scott Morrison has changed his stripes? You really believe him now the champion of, you know, pathetic one-liners on the weekend and on taking action on climate change is now someone you would trust to lead us forward into a renewable energy future? Of course not.
 
KARVELAS: You say you respect the new leader's prerogative, and of course, that is the case. But if you had remained leader, would you have kept that policy?
 
SHORTEN: Oh, no, I don't think - well, now we're in a hypothetical world, and I accept that three years on, some of the opportunities to reduce emissions have been squandered by the current Government's inaction. So, I don't think you can just simply apply the same stencil over Australia three years on - although I think it's funny that the Business Council of Australia, you know what a bunch of charlatans they've proven to be on climate. I mean, the Business Council of Australia, of course they know about climate change. They've held every position on it. I mean, they're saying that what I took to the election was a wrecking ball. Now they're sort of having canopies and finger food and cocktail parties announcing that's what they support. So, you know, you've got to keep a sense of humour, you've got to have a sense of humour in this job, don't you?
 
KARVELAS: You definitely have to stay on your toes in this business. Things change all the time, don't they, Bill Shorten?
 
SHORTEN: Lordy lordy, they do.
 
KARVELAS: So on that, you sound frustrated with their pivot. Isn't it a good thing? Don't you see it as a win?
 
SHORTEN: Well, sure, it's a win. But I just, as I say about the Business Council of Australia, of course, they know a lot about climate change. They've held every position possible on the issue.
 
KARVELAS: Look, before I get to the NDIS, and I want to ask you some questions on the NDIS, I want to ask you about – 
 
SHORTEN: That’d be good.
 
KARVELAS: Oh I don't worry I will, because I find it a very important program, as you know. But I do want to ask you about this story that's been unfolding in Victoria. It's on the other side of politics. This is in relation to Tim Smith, the Victorian frontbencher, now been dumped in the State Parliament for drink driving. There are reports this afternoon that senior Victorian liberals in the federal parliament, people like Josh Frydenberg, Michael Sukkar want him to stay in the Parliament. This is after Matthew Guy, the Opposition Leader in Victoria, wants him not to recontest his seat of Kew. What do you think should happen with him? Should he have the right to rehabilitate himself and stay in the Parliament?
 
SHORTEN: Well, people make mistakes, and I understand that, and I think Smith has said he's made a shocking error of judgment. But it's more than that now, isn't it? His Leader has said he doesn't want him, but for whatever reason, the federal Libs, who again are shameless, have said nothing to see here. Let's move on. Like if Josh Frydenberg or Michael Sukkar want to run the Victorian Liberal opposition, they should run for Matthew Guy's job. But I just would like Mr Frydenberg to concentrate on making sure we can pay down the debt. I would like Mr Sukkar to concentrate on how we get first home buyers into their first homes. Listen, this is an argument for the Liberal Party. I think Matthew Guy has taken a position and now it's a question of if Smith stays, then Matthew Guy has to go, and I don’t want to be a commentator on Liberal Party shenanigans. But I think the clear thing is now that Guy's taken a position - I don't know, what, are Frydenberg and Sukkar going to emasculate his leadership? I don't see how it's sustainable. But again, I'll leave that to the commentators, and I would like to see the federal Liberal Ministers get on with doing their day job, rather than worrying about who the next member for Kew might be.
 
KARVELAS: Ok, fair enough. Let's talk about the NDIS. An independent think tank report this week found the NDIS contributed $52 billion to the economy in 2020-21. What do you make of the research and what does it say to the claims that the Federal Government's made that it's unsustainable and there are cost blowouts?
 
SHORTEN: I think this is pretty dramatic research, at a very timely point in the future of the NDIS. The research shows that for every dollar spent on the National Disability Insurance Scheme, the economy benefits by an order of $2.25, so for every dollar you spend on the NDIS, we get more than double the bang for our buck. There's four hundred and sixty-seven thousand participants, these are profoundly or severely impaired people who benefit from the NDIS. There's two hundred and seventy thousand direct disability carer jobs and tens of thousands more. We've seen an increase in labour market participation for both carers and people with disabilities. So, I think when the Government says that there's a crisis in sustainability, I think they're just looking to manufacture a situation where they can justify cutting a scheme. I don't think the Liberals’ heart is in the NDIS. I think they privately believe too many people are getting on the NDIS. They think the claims of autism are overblown. They think the requirements of people to have independent living are too fussy and too particular, and they should just be content with what they get. I think the other really interesting development here is the disability sector is no longer going to be a passive player in Australian politics. This report wasn't commissioned by Labor. It was commissioned by the peak body for disability service providers in Australia, National Disability Services. They've always stayed out of politics, and they're not picking sides next time, either. But what they say is a strong NDIS is good, and a weak NDIS is bad. And I think there's a real concern that the Coalition and you know, you just have to go to Canberra. You can't move around a corner of the Parliament House without running into a Liberal whispering or backgrounding that disabled people are getting too much money. So, I think this is a timely intervention. The real problem with the Liberals and NDIS is they know the price of everything and the value of nothing when it comes to the NDIS.
 
KARVELAS: The report found for every billion dollars in underfunding, there would be a $2 billion decline in economic activity. Does this report provide enough public data to defend the cost of the scheme? Because it's a very different story to the one that the Federal Government has been telling?
 
SHORTEN: Well, I think what this does is reframes the debate in a healthy fashion. Let me be very, very, very clear. I don't want to see service providers charging too much. I don't want to see any rorts. I don't want to see people getting fleeced of their money by shonks and cowboys. I don't want to see people living in unsafe situations. On the other hand, though, when the NDIS, when the Government talks about the NDIS, they're always, you know, groaning and moaning about the cost of it. This report redefines it. If you invest in social infrastructure, if you recognise that the caring economy is actually a big part of the real-world economy, then you realise that when the Government talks about cuts, it actually has a flow on effect. People will have less choice and control in their lives. More people are discouraged from careers and working in disability. And we see fewer - I mean, in a lot of the money there goes to local and small businesses in local communities. So, I think this report reframes the debate. It says that when we invest in our most vulnerable with a generous safety net, we create markets, we create consumers, we create choice, we create quality of life, we create jobs. Good Australian jobs.
 
KARVELAS: Bill Shorten before I let you go, tomorrow the WA Premier Mark McGowan will outline the reopening of Western Australia or some sort of COVID plan. Do you think they should try and do what Queensland has done and try and work towards a reunification of people before Christmas?
 
SHORTEN: That'd be nice, but I'm not going to start telling the Premier of Western Australia how to do his business. Western Australia has done very well under its state approach. I do look forward, though, to the reunification of Australia. This has been an amazing and difficult time for literally millions of our fellow Australians. Nearly everyone has been affected in some way by COVID, if not directly, indirectly by travel and family and business. So, the sooner we can become one Australia again, you know, that can't come soon enough for me. But I think that Mr McGowan and his administration have done a good job keeping West Australians safe, and if we have to wait a few more days, then I think Australians will wait a few more days.
 
KARVELAS: Thank you so much for joining us. 
 
SHORTEN: Lovely to chat, Patricia. 
 
KARVELAS: Bill Shorten is the Shadow Minister for the NDIS and Government Services
 
ENDS